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2006-10-03 03:51:51
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6933

cl4u53w1t2 wrote:

T0rr3nt wrote:

a) you are from england.
b) stfu.
c) it IS in our constutition, therefore you can not change it(unless amended), get over it.
d) im not a redneck, nor am i all for guns. im just a bit more educated i suppose, than a snobby englishmen who thinks he knows everything.
haha. a conservative american redneck from michigan thinks he is educated. lol
oh man, how could "normal" europeans turn to such ignorant, uneducated and ugly individuals in just "a few" years? europeans should have stayed in europe and left america to its native inhabitants. they would have developed themselves and the continent much better!
Not like Germany was much better in the 40's...
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2006-10-03 04:02:08
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|6893|Belgium

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

JahManRed wrote:

The cities were guns aren't freely available have no such problems.
In the USA you can buy a gun easily so everyones got one.
Well, I don't know what kind of media circulates in the UK, but not everyone in the US has a gun. In fact, some people are so politically opposed to them that they don't want any. Fine with me.

JahManRed wrote:

Its easy to lose your reason, but were as someone might punch someone in the face or hit them with a stick, Usually the sight of the hurt on someones face or the splat of blood when you whack them is enough to make you stop. But say a gun is easily to hand, when you pull the trigger you have unleashed a chain of events that are unstoppable, then the "in for a penny in for a pound" rule takes over. ive killed someone, ill kill the rest and/or myself...........
I've gotten into fist-fights on occasion during my school days. Never have I tempted to go home and grab the 12-guage to splatter any offenders' brains all over the chalkboard. Half of my life was raised under gun culture, so I have a healthy respect for firearms. Besides which, you can kill with a punch.

Especially when properly trained. It doesn't take a kung fu genius with a palm-to-nose strike, either.

JahManRed wrote:

I have 3 guns in the house and we have some serious strict laws about them. In strong box case, bolted to the wall. Spot inspections of your house by the police. A yearly walk with a specially trained police man around all the land you are allowed to shot on to look for back drops and possible bullet leeks, background checks. Guns will be taken off you if you as much as punch a guy who's felt your wife's ass in a bar........ all this serves to make guns a thing of aww and respect. Instead of a must have accessory, toy,status symbol family protector.
I'm not sure what inspection laws exist in the US to regulate firing ranges, as I've never looked into the matter, but I am happy enough without having to tolerate spot police checks. I have nothing to hide, but I'd still view it as an inexcusable invasion of privacy.

The majority of my firearms are kept locked in a huge safe at all times when not in use, and the one kept for self-defense (a 9mm) is either on or near my person at all times. If I ever go anywhere where I can't bring it in (federal facilities or stadiums), I'll lock it up. Weapons in storage are unloaded. A semi-auto weapon on my person is on safety, has a magazine inserted, but no bullet chambered. This state is confirmed before and after I belt it.

I do not view firearms as toys. People who do generally are not raised properly around them.
Interesting...  May I ask what you do in life and why you need to wear a loaded handgun (concealed weapon) at any time in public places? Do you wear the gun also in bars etc.?

On topic: IMO, the gun itself is not the problem, look at Canada where a lot of people own guns for hunting and sport, and far less shooting occurs than in the US.  The problem is not the weapon, but the people.

And as long as all sort of weapons can be bought freely, e.g. AK-47's, as long as people see them as a normal thing to have in their homes, these killings will happen because it's 'part of the culture'.

Myself, i own a Colt .45 ACP and a Benelli M1, with license and all measures according the strict gun laws we have in our country.

Last edited by Pierre (2006-10-04 05:23:56)

2006-10-03 04:08:41
Paco_the_Insane
Phorum Phantom
+244|6862|Ohio
Well they're not living in an amish paradise.
2006-10-03 04:23:30
Whitegreek
Sniping with the pistol...
+4|7063
Personally in terms of dealing with firearms America is 10 years behind the rest of the world. Australia has tight restrcitions on the use of guns, same with most fo Europe, Japan and at least 25 other countries. In Sweeden I believe that every citizen has to own and be trained to safely use a rifle.

One thing that pisses me is when someone thinks they're patriotic by saying "it's our country we'll govern ourselves", well firstly yes you can govern yourselves, secondly the choices your country makes affacts the rest of the world. America is the biggest exporter of guns next to Russia, but unlike the Russians who locked up most of their arms at the fall of the Soviet Union, America keeps them circulating.

Secondly Americans who say "we need guns to defend ourselves" bullshit the ratio of guns being used in murders to guns used to defend people is 10:1. Keeping a gun in the house is just a shortcut way of your apathetic brother or an enraged father using it to go out and have their own miniture Grand Theft Auto style killing spreed (note: Jack Tompsoon is a toolbag).

I think America needs to so stir crazy on thier anti-gun amendments and start banning guns left right and center. Rather than locking up everyone with a gun though they should adopt what Australians do, an anonomus gun drop-off.
In Australia every year for two weeks there's a program run by the polic which peopel can drop off their illegal firearms and not get chareged for it, every year they end up with thousands of rifles. It's a good system and effective to a point.
2006-10-03 04:58:59
DesertFox-
The very model of a modern major general
+796|6902|United States of America
I see most of the anti-people are from out of the country. The reason that view is so because they grew up with those laws and are unfamiliar with them. To you, a gun is a scary thing that goes poof and 10 people are dead. If you've grown up with that facet in the culture, you know the safety rules and what you should and should not do.
Surely, if I gave one of these people a pistol, I am fairly certain that 40% would have no clue how to get the safety on/off. Why? No prior experience. You may very well be basing your opinion on secondhand info. However, if we're talking about marijuana, you know all about what that does. Why, I ask? Experience.
Nuttah, sure you may be able to own a Howitzer just as you may be able to own a functioning P-51 (even though that is quite a stretch), but you're sure as hell not going to get ammo for it.
2006-10-03 05:12:41
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6989|PNW

Whitegreek wrote:

One thing that pisses me is when someone thinks they're patriotic by saying "it's our country we'll govern ourselves", well firstly yes you can govern yourselves, secondly the choices your country makes affacts the rest of the world. America is the biggest exporter of guns next to Russia, but unlike the Russians who locked up most of their arms at the fall of the Soviet Union, America keeps them circulating.
That a load of naïve hooey.

Whitegreek wrote:

Secondly Americans who say "we need guns to defend ourselves" bullshit the ratio of guns being used in murders to guns used to defend people is 10:1. Keeping a gun in the house is just a shortcut way of your apathetic brother or an enraged father using it to go out and have their own miniture Grand Theft Auto style killing spreed (note: Jack Tompsoon is a toolbag).

I think America needs to so stir crazy on thier anti-gun amendments and start banning guns left right and center. Rather than locking up everyone with a gun though they should adopt what Australians do, an anonomus gun drop-off.
In Australia every year for two weeks there's a program run by the polic which peopel can drop off their illegal firearms and not get chareged for it, every year they end up with thousands of rifles. It's a good system and effective to a point.
Yet more from the peanut gallery (whatever "needs to so stir crazy on amendments" is supposed to mean). Nothing pisses off lawful gun owners here more than comparing them with hardened criminals. And the suggestion of anonymous drop-offs post-rights-stripping (a ban "left, right and center")? Yeah, drop off...or what? Cops will come for you? No, probably the BATF, and we all know how gentle they are. Jesus, dude, I'm not going to kill anyone, unless it's in justifiable self-defense (I'm sorry to say that pepper spray and tasers are not guarantees for downing an opponent). Therefore, my firearms are not harming anyone.

Note: While you admit Jack Thompson's toolbaggedness, you still used his his favorite saw - GTA.
2006-10-03 05:13:00
Pierre
I hunt criminals down for a living
+68|6893|Belgium

DesertFox423 wrote:

I see most of the anti-people are from out of the country. The reason that view is so because they grew up with those laws and are unfamiliar with them. To you, a gun is a scary thing that goes poof and 10 people are dead. If you've grown up with that facet in the culture, you know the safety rules and what you should and should not do.
Surely, if I gave one of these people a pistol, I am fairly certain that 40% would have no clue how to get the safety on/off. Why? No prior experience. You may very well be basing your opinion on secondhand info. However, if we're talking about marijuana, you know all about what that does. Why, I ask? Experience.
Nuttah, sure you may be able to own a Howitzer just as you may be able to own a functioning P-51 (even though that is quite a stretch), but you're sure as hell not going to get ammo for it.
Well, that's exactly my point: in many countries with strict gun laws, those who have a gun will treat it with respect and will know how to handle it, and those who don't know anything about it or do not obtain the necessary licenses will not have one, period. So no danger there.

In countries without strict gun laws, guns are seen as belonging to the 'normal way of life', and therefor, regardless of being scared or not knowing how to handle the gun in a safe way, are far more likely to be used, especially since every moron can buy one or even more.

In Europe, as in other parts of the world, are a lot of nitwits, I know that, but not many of them carry guns and are therefor a liability for others.
2006-10-03 05:13:23
Whitegreek
Sniping with the pistol...
+4|7063
Umm to say we haven't grown up aorund guns is a bit unfounded. I've grown up aorund them, they're all of courc liscensed and such but we know if used right a gun can be safe. A lot of poepl here consider a gun a way of life, quite a few Australians own guns. Keen hunters and whatnot.

What makes us say that America should restrict guns is that AMericans are too relaxed when it comes to firearms, it shows in your crime figures. Americans are twice as likey to be murdered by someone weilding a firearm than most Europeans.

Go figure.

Last edited by Whitegreek (2006-10-03 05:17:25)

2006-10-03 05:15:15
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6989|PNW

Since international opinion was brought up, here's a link to one of my old polls, measuring opinion on CCW based on US vs foreign citizenship, with yes/no modifiers. The polarity seems pretty balanced.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-03 05:15:48)

2006-10-03 05:20:35
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7047

T0rr3nt wrote:

a) you are from england.
b) stfu.
c) it IS in our constutition, therefore you can not change it(unless amended), get over it.
d) im not a redneck, nor am i all for guns. im just a bit more educated i suppose, than a snobby englishmen who thinks he knows everything.
It's also in your constitution that slaves only count as three fifths of a person.
2006-10-03 05:25:57
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6989|PNW

Whitegreek wrote:

What makes us say that America should restrict guns is that AMericans are too relaxed when it comes to firearms, it shows in your crime figures. Americans are twice as likey to be murdered by someone weilding a firearm than most Europeans.

Go figure.
No, I can't go to a sports store and buy a concealed weapon without a background check, no matter what the press claims. A better answer is to dramatically raise the penalties for firearms-related crime, rather than punish law abiding citizens for crimes they didn't commit, unless you're going to start playing Time Cop and arresting based purely on prophesy.

There's one key element you're missing here: if you're murdered, you're murdered. It doesn't matter how it happens, because you're dead. I, on the other hand, would rather be fully prepared just in case I'm unlucky enough to have to strive against someone trying to kill me. Maybe there should be a National Geographic episode on it. You see, I don't care if people don't want to arm themselves, or even fight back. All I ask in return is that they don't try to deprive me of my own right to self-defense.

How is it that whenever a government tries to throw another shackle on its citizenry, it's always "for the children" or the "grandchildren" or "generations to come?"

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-10-03 05:30:56)

2006-10-03 05:36:35
HOLLYWOOD=_=FTW=_=
Member
+31|6769
GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE STUPID CRAZY ASS MOTHER FUCKERS KILL PEOPLE. If they didnt have guns they would use knives if they didnt have knives they would use a god damn pen. Its a shame they died I mourn the little amish kids and the kids in colorado and whoever else your talking about but its pussies like you that automatically blame guns when shit like this happens. GET OVER IT( Im assuming i just pissed off most of the community lol damn and no neg karma to get)
2006-10-03 05:40:50
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6989|PNW

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

T0rr3nt wrote:

a) you are from england.
b) stfu.
c) it IS in our constutition, therefore you can not change it(unless amended), get over it.
d) im not a redneck, nor am i all for guns. im just a bit more educated i suppose, than a snobby englishmen who thinks he knows everything.
It's also in your constitution that slaves only count as three fifths of a person.
Not assuming you're English or anything, but the Brits have anything but a perfect track record in the history of human rights.
2006-10-03 05:43:13
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6933

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

T0rr3nt wrote:

a) you are from england.
b) stfu.
c) it IS in our constutition, therefore you can not change it(unless amended), get over it.
d) im not a redneck, nor am i all for guns. im just a bit more educated i suppose, than a snobby englishmen who thinks he knows everything.
It's also in your constitution that slaves only count as three fifths of a person.
Population wise for how many governers in a state... And wasn't the Europeans that started the slave market?
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2006-10-03 05:54:39
Jinto-sk
Laid Back Yorkshireman
+183|6809|Scarborough Yorkshire England

HOLLYWOOD=_=FTW=_= wrote:

GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE STUPID CRAZY ASS MOTHER FUCKERS KILL PEOPLE. If they didnt have guns they would use knives if they didnt have knives they would use a god damn pen. Its a shame they died I mourn the little amish kids and the kids in colorado and whoever else your talking about but its pussies like you that automatically blame guns when shit like this happens. GET OVER IT( Im assuming i just pissed off most of the community lol damn and no neg karma to get)
You can kill 10 people with a gun far quicker than with a knife or pen, you may only be on to your 3rd victim by the time the police arrive using a pen .
And wasn't the Europeans that started the slave market?
I do believe the Arabs were the first nations to enslave and sell people
2006-10-03 05:55:20
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7047
It seems like a decent comprimise would be rather than banning guns in Americas straight away, just greatly limit what weapons are avalible. (Remember, 300,000 guns are stolen in the US each year and 78% of guns used in crimes in the US were made in the US, so the weapons that criminals have are the weapons that the law abiding citizens did have)

Ban all firearms except:

.22 LR bolt action rifles
long barrel shotguns that are barrel loaded (no pump action or self loading)
Revolver style handguns with limits on calibre.

This would allow Americans the ability to defend themselves and go hunting while at the same time removing the most potentially dangerous weaponry.

As for the two post above this one, my point was that the constitution has mistakes and amendments in it as it is an arcane piece of law and should be regularly updated.

Last edited by .:XDR:.PureFodder (2006-10-03 05:57:17)

2006-10-03 05:59:34
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6933

Jinto-sk wrote:

HOLLYWOOD=_=FTW=_= wrote:

GUNS DONT KILL PEOPLE STUPID CRAZY ASS MOTHER FUCKERS KILL PEOPLE. If they didnt have guns they would use knives if they didnt have knives they would use a god damn pen. Its a shame they died I mourn the little amish kids and the kids in colorado and whoever else your talking about but its pussies like you that automatically blame guns when shit like this happens. GET OVER IT( Im assuming i just pissed off most of the community lol damn and no neg karma to get)
You can kill 10 people with a gun far quicker than with a knife or pen, you may only be on to your 3rd victim by the time the police arrive using a pen .
And wasn't the Europeans that started the slave market?
I do believe the Arabs were the first nations to enslave and sell people
Either way, when you kill ppl with a knife, they bleed more (most of the time).
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2006-10-03 06:02:43
HornyToady
Member
+3|6928|Wisconsin, USA
Why do you  Euros care so much about Americans killing Americans anyway?....
2006-10-03 06:04:18
Snipedya14
Dont tread on me
+77|6912|Mountains of West Virginia

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

TeK||drake666 wrote:

what i want to say is that guns became normal in the US damn you can buy it in a sport-store... its to easy to get one...
After a background check and all that. Rifles and shotguns are easier to get, but it seems as if more crime is committed with handguns than larger firearms.
You dont need a backround check in several states in the country. You can go to a gun show, buy a handgun, not even be carded, and carry it away. No wait period, no check. I own guns do not get me wrong, but c'mon.
2006-10-03 06:04:35
Jinto-sk
Laid Back Yorkshireman
+183|6809|Scarborough Yorkshire England

HornyToady wrote:

Why do you  Euros care so much about Americans killing Americans anyway?....
Because we love you so and hate to see you killing each other, if their is another world war who is going to protect us ????

Or Maybe

We just can't fathom out your gun laws so we have become obsessed with America and it's relationship with guns

Last edited by Jinto-sk (2006-10-03 06:08:00)

2006-10-03 06:07:54
HornyToady
Member
+3|6928|Wisconsin, USA
Ahh Jinto....satire....

edit....didnt know you were editing...lol

Last edited by HornyToady (2006-10-03 06:08:52)

2006-10-03 06:08:32
Miller
IT'S MILLER TIME!
+271|6973|United States of America

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

It seems like a decent comprimise would be rather than banning guns in Americas straight away, just greatly limit what weapons are avalible. (Remember, 300,000 guns are stolen in the US each year and 78% of guns used in crimes in the US were made in the US, so the weapons that criminals have are the weapons that the law abiding citizens did have)

Ban all firearms except:

.22 LR bolt action rifles
long barrel shotguns that are barrel loaded (no pump action or self loading)
Revolver style handguns with limits on calibre.

This would allow Americans the ability to defend themselves and go hunting while at the same time removing the most potentially dangerous weaponry.

As for the two post above this one, my point was that the constitution has mistakes and amendments in it as it is an arcane piece of law and should be regularly updated.
You think a .22 lets someone defend themselves? Listen, criminals break the law, that's why they are criminals! They wouldn't care which firearms are banned or not.  I for one will not allow the few shotguns, pistols, and M1A1 Carbine to be taken from me.  Good god man, you are trying to make life more dangerous than it already is.  Once I can get a CCW I will be using my .45 as often as possible (at the range for practice).  By taking a law abiding citizens weapon you are making them defenseless against any criminal that decides, yet again, to break the law.  The ban  on the Barret out here in California pissed me off.  We have had how many crimes related with the massive thing? I count one off the top of my head.   Yet they ban it.  Who in God's name is going to rob a store with a .50 under his jacket? It would be slow, impossible to hide, and people with guns would pull them on you instantly.  I for one was looking forward to saving up and buying one, thanks you liberal cheese heads.  Guns, all guns, should be allowed.  The only thing that should be banned if any, is an assault rifle (AK, M4, M16). Actually, no, not even those should be banned. I might get  one.  Let me keep my right to self defense with what I feel is necessary, let me be the one to decide how I use it.  Just because we have idiots that go kill someone, kill themselves, all that crap... I have heard so many times in threads about Muslims, that it's not the general public that supports the actions of the extremists.  Well guess what, same thing here, the general public doesn't support the actions of these idiots, so why take guns from everyone.  If you do that, I would have to kill all Muslims. Just in case one goes berserk.

Last edited by Miller (2006-10-03 06:09:26)

2006-10-03 06:11:34
UON
Junglist Massive
+223|6871

DesertFox423 wrote:

I see most of the anti-people are from out of the country. The reason that view is so because they grew up with those laws and are unfamiliar with them. To you, a gun is a scary thing that goes poof and 10 people are dead. If you've grown up with that facet in the culture, you know the safety rules and what you should and should not do.
Surely, if I gave one of these people a pistol, I am fairly certain that 40% would have no clue how to get the safety on/off. Why? No prior experience. You may very well be basing your opinion on secondhand info. However, if we're talking about marijuana, you know all about what that does. Why, I ask? Experience.
Nuttah, sure you may be able to own a Howitzer just as you may be able to own a functioning P-51 (even though that is quite a stretch), but you're sure as hell not going to get ammo for it.
Well, I did grow up with that facet of culture.  One of my primary school friends dad ran a large gun shop, I learnt alot about guns at quite an early age.  And we still have guns here, but in the UK we made handguns illegal because of Dunblane, where a man with a legally owned .357 shot dead 16 young children, their teacher and himself.  People here saw the massacre and public opinion was very much in favour making it more difficult for criminals to get and keep guns by limiting gun ownership. 

Children can't carry guns in America (i really, really hope), so how are all these people walking around with concealed weapons going to protect the children when a lunatic marches into their school on a mission to hurt somebody?

edit[...whew, i resisted mentioning (self moderated)...]

Last edited by UnOriginalNuttah (2006-10-03 06:13:20)

2006-10-03 06:18:07
Lazzars
Member
+4|6865

HornyToady wrote:

Why do you  Euros care so much about Americans killing Americans anyway?....
why did you americans care about iraqis killing iraqis....oh

anyway

i love the comment on how the right to bear arms is in the consitution but it can't be changed only ammended, like it was ammended to put it there in the first place

any why is it that these nuts get hold of guns? their availability sounds like a good cause to me

sure you can't damn a whole nation of gun lovers because a few bad people use the guns for the opposite of what there ment for however there are extreams to the availability afterall you can buy assault rifles in some places as long as they are for "sport", what sport are you going to need an assault rile for?

most europian countries get along fine without guns, sure we have gun crime but i wonder where those guns come from in the first place anyway

my point is that it might not solve all your problems but getting rid of atleast the guns from one state and seeing how it goes wouldn't be too hard
2006-10-03 06:38:33
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7047

Miller wrote:

.:XDR:.PureFodder wrote:

It seems like a decent comprimise would be rather than banning guns in Americas straight away, just greatly limit what weapons are avalible. (Remember, 300,000 guns are stolen in the US each year and 78% of guns used in crimes in the US were made in the US, so the weapons that criminals have are the weapons that the law abiding citizens did have)

Ban all firearms except:

.22 LR bolt action rifles
long barrel shotguns that are barrel loaded (no pump action or self loading)
Revolver style handguns with limits on calibre.

This would allow Americans the ability to defend themselves and go hunting while at the same time removing the most potentially dangerous weaponry.

As for the two post above this one, my point was that the constitution has mistakes and amendments in it as it is an arcane piece of law and should be regularly updated.
You think a .22 lets someone defend themselves? Listen, criminals break the law, that's why they are criminals! They wouldn't care which firearms are banned or not.  I for one will not allow the few shotguns, pistols, and M1A1 Carbine to be taken from me.  Good god man, you are trying to make life more dangerous than it already is.  Once I can get a CCW I will be using my .45 as often as possible (at the range for practice).  By taking a law abiding citizens weapon you are making them defenseless against any criminal that decides, yet again, to break the law.  The ban  on the Barret out here in California pissed me off.  We have had how many crimes related with the massive thing? I count one off the top of my head.   Yet they ban it.  Who in God's name is going to rob a store with a .50 under his jacket? It would be slow, impossible to hide, and people with guns would pull them on you instantly.  I for one was looking forward to saving up and buying one, thanks you liberal cheese heads.  Guns, all guns, should be allowed.  The only thing that should be banned if any, is an assault rifle (AK, M4, M16). Actually, no, not even those should be banned. I might get  one.  Let me keep my right to self defense with what I feel is necessary, let me be the one to decide how I use it.  Just because we have idiots that go kill someone, kill themselves, all that crap... I have heard so many times in threads about Muslims, that it's not the general public that supports the actions of the extremists.  Well guess what, same thing here, the general public doesn't support the actions of these idiots, so why take guns from everyone.  If you do that, I would have to kill all Muslims. Just in case one goes berserk.
Ok, you're missing the point here.

Guns in the hands of criminals were once in the hands of non-criminals.

If the general law abiding populace only has small calibre slow firing weapons then the vast majority of criminals will only have access to these same weapons.

Initially there would be alot of other weapons out there in the hands of criminals, but as the police recover them over time and the supply of these weapons is massively reduced the numbers of these firearms will drop. This is EXACTLY what happened to assault weapons after they were banned, over a couple of years the number of crimes comitted with these weapons took a big drop. Also it's worth noting that everyone knows that the FBI are very good at matching bullets with guns, so once used in a crime, a weapon is unlikely to be used again.

 

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