ShotYourSix
Boldly going nowhere...
+196|6948|Las Vegas
Considering that this came from Rense.com, I thought this was a fairly reasonable article which points out some interesting conclusions. (warning, its very long)

http://www.rense.com/general72/wju.htm

I would be curious to hear what those of you who are currently debating this topic think re: this "brief".

Last edited by ShotYourSix (2006-07-22 01:20:21)

ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command
Garbage is what it is.
Bombing a city to ruins?!
PLEASE!
Look at what Russia did to Checynea (misspelled) and they have the nerve to say to Israel that their going too far.

Its about collective punishment and preventing the terrorist from transporting the captives to Iran or Syria. If the people over there are going to support terrorist regimes they will have to suffer.
I say to HELL with them.
ShotYourSix
Boldly going nowhere...
+196|6948|Las Vegas
Did you even read the entire article?

His larger point was that Israel has greater intentions than just smashing hezbola(sp), I would tend to agree.  I fully expect to see the US drawn into a larger conflict.  In that respect I agree with what the writer was suggesting.  And to be honest, I say we might as well get this over with now.  It now or later after all.....
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command

ShotYourSix wrote:

Did you even read the entire article?
Pretty much

1) Israel states that it has no quarrel with the government or people of Lebanon. Then why bomb so many non-military targets? The damage count is now up to 300 civilian dead, over 1,000 wounded and 500,000 displaced persons. The entire economy of Lebanon has ground to a halt. Shops are shut down, whole towns deserted, people are streaming anywhere to find refuge, and there is little fuel, no fresh food and little public water
This whole phrase is loaded as is the majority of the article.
Again, if these people are going to tolerate their fellow citizens launching rockets into Israel then they too need to suffer. I have no pity for them. Just as liberals in America suggest that our soldiers "do the right thing" and turn their weapons on their commander I suggest that if these Middle East people do not want to die and/or suffer THEY nip it in the bud!
The government of Israel is in large part responsible for allowing this build up of thousands of lethal rockets across the border in Lebanon, and for those being launched from Gaza. Israel unilaterally pulled out of the buffer zone they had created in Lebanon. They pulled out of Gaza knowing that it would become a safe haven for terrorists launching rockets and mortars.
This is almost funny. He complains about what they are doing, and then in effect says " stupid Jews, if you hadn't pulled back out of the settlements, and you HAD bombed Syria and Iran, none of this would be happening.
Fuck it, this is getting old, I say BRING IT ON.
3) Israel claims to be attacking only military targets. This is clearly untrue, unless Israel is prepping the country for a full scale invasion and occupation-which is clearly not justified. Israel has been bombing and shelling all southern Lebanese towns, in most cases giving warning for the people to flee. But whole neighborhoods are being hit, hardly a show of discriminate bombing. In one case, after heeding a warning to flee, a column of Lebanese people and vehicles were attacked by Israeli jets.
The world needs to understand that unless these people are going to form a RL MEC and form battle formations, this is the way it will be.  In other words, if you launch rockets from neighborhoods you can expect those areas to be FLATTENED.
I could go on but its late.

Last edited by Alexanderthegrape (2006-07-22 01:42:00)

ShotYourSix
Boldly going nowhere...
+196|6948|Las Vegas
Well I will agree that the writer does have present his own slant, on the other hand, his points about the "real" intentions of Israel and perhaps the US as well seem pretty sensible to me (addressed in the latter part of the article).  Personally, I'm trying to stay neutral on the whole topic, just trying to figure out where this is all heading....
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command
If Israel has joined in the US strategy of purposeful antagonism of the Muslim world
Says all that needs to be said about the authors perspective.

Where is it heading? Good question.
I believe Israel will get nuked within the next five years and then a new world order will arrise, if we exist after that, religion will eventually have to be outlawed.
ShotYourSix
Boldly going nowhere...
+196|6948|Las Vegas

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

[ if we exist after that, religion will eventually have to be outlawed.
Guess that would be one bright spot in your scenario.
Tjasso
the "Commander"
+102|6752|the Netherlands
FUBAR !  You all know jack shit about the middle east so have a nice cup of STFU  about israel and the middle east cause its FUBAR ...whole world watches (again)  and what are we gonna do about it tell me ???

MAKES ME MAD !!!! sorry leds
j5f5ff
Member
+11|6979
"Just as liberals in America suggest that our soldiers "do the right thing" and turn their weapons on their commander ..." - Alexanderthegrape


?!!!
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command
San Fransico political activist have suggested just that. I guess I conceed that " liberals in America" may have been a bit sweeping.
Skruples
Mod Incarnate
+234|6930
While I agree with you in part, Alexander, the same logic could be used to blame american citizens for high crime rates. I don't see anyone arresting/shooting regular american citizens because they 'allow' crime to happen in their vicinity. You have to realize that the average citizen of Lebanon really can't do shit about terrorism, just as the regular citizen of the U.S can't do a damn thing about a robbery that takes place 5 blocks away (other than calling the cops, if they happen to be aware).  It's the government of Lebanon that is to be blamed for any use of their territory/borders for attacks on Israel, not the general population. It would be exactly the same as if you were to blame the citizens of Iraq for Saddam's actions. Would you accept if the U.S was bombing civilians centers wholesale in Iraq (back when the invasion was in full swing, that is), regardless of civilian casualties? After all, the civilians were 'allowing' Saddam to [insert bad things Saddam was doing here] in their neighborhood, don't they deserve it?

I will never accept that intentionally attacking a civilian populace is a viable means of fighting a war. The united states, and to a slightly lesser extent Israel, has the means to reduce civilian casualties to a minimum, and those means should be exercised. Of course, I also recognize that in any armed conflict civilians are going to die, but my point is those deaths can be minimized.

Though this was meant more as a general statement, it does apply in part to the situation in Lebanon/Isreal. The attacks against Israel that kill civilians are deplorable, but that does not justify Israel's killing of civilians in return. In short, Israel's problem is with the leadership of Lebanon, not the average Lebanese Joe Shmoe. The government is who they should be fighting.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

Again, if these people are going to tolerate their fellow citizens launching rockets into Israel then they too need to suffer.
What are they going to do, ask Hizballah to stop attacking Israel?  They are unarmed and untrained, they do not have the ability to stop them.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command

Skruples wrote:

While I agree with you in part, Alexander, the same logic could be used to blame american citizens for high crime rates. I don't see anyone arresting/shooting regular american citizens because they 'allow' crime to happen in their vicinity. You have to realize that the average citizen of Lebanon really can't do shit about terrorism, just as the regular citizen of the U.S can't do a damn thing about a robbery that takes place 5 blocks away (other than calling the cops, if they happen to be aware).  It's the government of Lebanon that is to be blamed for any use of their territory/borders for attacks on Israel, not the general population. It would be exactly the same as if you were to blame the citizens of Iraq for Saddam's actions. Would you accept if the U.S was bombing civilians centers wholesale in Iraq (back when the invasion was in full swing, that is), regardless of civilian casualties? After all, the civilians were 'allowing' Saddam to [insert bad things Saddam was doing here] in their neighborhood, don't they deserve it?

I will never accept that intentionally attacking a civilian populace is a viable means of fighting a war. The united states, and to a slightly lesser extent Israel, has the means to reduce civilian casualties to a minimum, and those means should be exercised. Of course, I also recognize that in any armed conflict civilians are going to die, but my point is those deaths can be minimized.

Though this was meant more as a general statement, it does apply in part to the situation in Lebanon/Isreal. The attacks against Israel that kill civilians are deplorable, but that does not justify Israel's killing of civilians in return. In short, Israel's problem is with the leadership of Lebanon, not the average Lebanese Joe Shmoe. The government is who they should be fighting.
With respect,
I do hold a people accountable if they do not rise up against a evil regime. I know its complicated. But the people who dont support the fighting should leave and the U.N. should care for them as displaced citizens while the trouble makers are routed out.
    If, Israel attacked, lets say, Jordan, and began building settlements I would support the bombing of Israel.
I am relatively neutral. Those Muslim people have not bargined in good faith and I lay the blame for this new fighting, as the fighting in Afganistan and Iraq, on them, not us.

Bubbalo wrote:

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

Again, if these people are going to tolerate their fellow citizens launching rockets into Israel then they too need to suffer.
What are they going to do, ask Hizballah to stop attacking Israel?  They are unarmed and untrained, they do not have the ability to stop them.
They have to not tollerate them. Run them out, turn them in, do something. Or else there will be a much larger war.

Last edited by Alexanderthegrape (2006-07-22 02:14:43)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

They have to not tollerate them. Run them out, turn them in, do something. Or else there will be a much larger war.
You say tolerate them like they have a choice, they don't.  The government, thanks to years of civil war, doesn't have the power to stop them, and the citizens are unarmed.  What do you want them to do?
BVC
Member
+325|6925
I'm wondering if I should just sell popcorn to both sides of this argument instead of picking sides...
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945

Bubbalo wrote:

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

They have to not tollerate them. Run them out, turn them in, do something. Or else there will be a much larger war.
You say tolerate them like they have a choice, they don't.  The government, thanks to years of civil war, doesn't have the power to stop them, and the citizens are unarmed.  What do you want them to do?
If the lebonese gov itself doesnt have enough power to stop the hezaboola then why dont they get israels aid first? and remember in 1998 those palistinian kids (8-10 years old) were yelling death to the zionist, death to jews on their national telivision? im surprised israel hasnt crushed palistine yet, better yet the whole northen muslims are all bashing israel, those seig heil pics any1?
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

If the lebonese gov itself doesnt have enough power to stop the hezaboola then why dont they get israels aid first?
Because that would be like the US asking Russia to help police it's cities.

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

im surprised israel hasnt crushed palistine yet
I'd say they've done a fair job of that.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945

Bubbalo wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

If the lebonese gov itself doesnt have enough power to stop the hezaboola then why dont they get israels aid first?
Because that would be like the US asking Russia to help police it's cities.
err that is completely different... Lebanon could have said to israel that they need help erecting terrorists out of their countries, and terrorist that will attack israel

Bubbalo wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

im surprised israel hasnt crushed palistine yet
I'd say they've done a fair job of that.
But its still palistnian control... israel have safe zones in palenstine as a warning to jerusalem. but yes they have done quite a good job at it, but they have not taken palenstine totally
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

err that is completely different... Lebanon could have said to israel that they need help erecting terrorists out of their countries, and terrorist that will attack israel
But how can Lebanon trust Israel to assist in the eradication of terrorists, whilst doing their best to avoid civilian casualties, and withdraw when the job is done?

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

But its still palistnian control... israel have safe zones in palenstine as a warning to jerusalem. but yes they have done quite a good job at it, but they have not taken palenstine totally
They had until recently.  And then they cut off supplies.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945
ok why didnt lebanon ask earlier then if they knew about the activities? why didnt they immedietly go to israel and say: we are sorry our security sucks and we need your help getting rid of hazabolla
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Pvt.Kosak
Member
+125|6815
israel should kick Lebonans asses.
IKC-Wildcat
Member
+1|6877
Well guys israel had asked for two captured soldiers to be returned and would not do anything if they were they were not returned so they pretty much deserve what they are asking for i sorta have to agree almost on both sides though that they do have a right to attack because they are being bombed and each country if being attacked has the right to fight back.  Pretty much though i'd hate to say it but for every bomb leb's drop israel drops like 10, i think israel would have them totally over powered if they really want to like look at the last ones that israel attacked they are still recooperating from that attack israel is strong and i think they will kick some serious ass if they keep getting bombed and don't get what they want.

But you all have very good point of views and that is just mine of what i think might happen if they don't stop getting bombed and stuff israel is strong and i don't think anyone can deny that.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

ok why didnt lebanon ask earlier then if they knew about the activities? why didnt they immedietly go to israel and say: we are sorry our security sucks and we need your help getting rid of hazabolla
*ahem*

I wrote:

But how can Lebanon trust Israel to assist in the eradication of terrorists, whilst doing their best to avoid civilian casualties, and withdraw when the job is done?
topthrill05
Member
+125|6807|Rochester NY USA

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

If Israel has joined in the US strategy of purposeful antagonism of the Muslim world
Says all that needs to be said about the authors perspective.

Where is it heading? Good question.
I believe Israel will get nuked within the next five years and then a new world order will arrise, if we exist after that, religion will eventually have to be outlawed.
So you want freedom outlawed as well? You sound a little like the dictators of the past, I could even compare that statement to Hitlers.

But sure, bathe in your ignorance.
Ikarti
Banned - for ever.
+231|6938|Wilmington, DE, US

topthrill05 wrote:

Alexanderthegrape wrote:

If Israel has joined in the US strategy of purposeful antagonism of the Muslim world
Says all that needs to be said about the authors perspective.

Where is it heading? Good question.
I believe Israel will get nuked within the next five years and then a new world order will arrise, if we exist after that, religion will eventually have to be outlawed.
So you want freedom outlawed as well? You sound a little like the dictators of the past, I could even compare that statement to Hitlers.

But sure, bathe in your ignorance.
Not to mention complete stupidity. He just hates Muslims, he wants people to kill them, he doesn't care who. If Israel's doing it too, fantastic. See how little he cares? Oh they'll just get nuked anyway.

Alexanderthegrape: Boldly grunting at the monitor and smashing the keyboard since as long as I can remember posting here.

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