Pages: 1

 

2006-07-10 08:59:53
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6747|Montucky
Mythbusters, do they actually test all variables? On a  previous post the debate about sugar + gas tanks=messed up engines started. I saw an episode a few days ago where they trying bust the myth about water acting as armor for somebody swiming.  They used a 9mm Handgun, a 12 Guage Shot Gun, M1 Garand (30 caliber), An AR-15 (.223 Caliber), Black Powder Muzzle Loader (.50 Caliber slug) and everybodies favorite rifle, some Scoped Rifle chambered in .50 caliber (like the M95, but wasn't made by barrett).

At First they simulator used was roughly a square object made of glass and metal, that was 2 feet by 2 feet and around 10 feet long, filled with H20 (water) with their famous ballistic gel at the bottom, they tested the 9mm first, it didn't penitrate the gel untill 8 feet. (keep in mind they are firing straight down)

Next they used the shotgun(firing straight down) it went clean through the ballistic gel at 9 feet and broke their little glass square gizmo.

So they decided to use an olympic sized swimming pool, and shot downwards at a 30 degree angle, none of the large caliber rifles penitrated the gel at 3 feet below the water.

Now, i know little about physics, perhaps thar be an Ub3R Genius amongst us that can explain this.

Doesn't having water in a chamber that can expand present a problem?

Now using an Olympic sized swimming pool to test the rifles, doesn't the water (not pure h20, has chlorine added) absorb the bullet's power to penitrate? since the area is greater for the water move and expand?

Does the Angle used for firing present a problem? they went from 90 degrees to 30 Degrees

but their conclusion was slower moving bullets below 1,000 Feet Per Second can provide a lethal shot in water.

To me this makes about as much sense as a football bat?


and please don't derail this thread by means of Mr O Rlly Owl..
2006-07-10 09:25:31
CrazeD
Member
+368|6902|Maine
It's because the bigger rounds fire at such a high velocity, that they shatter upon impact. The smaller caliber rounds are smaller (in size) and are at a much lower velocity, so therefore they will go deeper.
2006-07-10 09:27:58
lukeiamnotyourfather
Joe's Crematorium, You Kill'em, We Grill'em!
+37|6905
the bullets that go fast cant push the water away fast enough, therefore tearing the bullet to shreds.  The slower bullets, however, are able to push the water away.
2006-07-10 09:28:41
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6964|California
Did they use buckshot or a slug int he shotgun? I would think a smaller projectile would have less area of resistance, hence travel further.

Other than that, I have no idea.
2006-07-10 09:30:34
travisb05
bullseye (+)
+58|6928|U.S

CrazeD wrote:

It's because the bigger rounds fire at such a high velocity, that they shatter upon impact. The smaller caliber rounds are smaller (in size) and are at a much lower velocity, so therefore they will go deeper.
2006-07-10 09:31:22
lukeiamnotyourfather
Joe's Crematorium, You Kill'em, We Grill'em!
+37|6905
It's all about friction.
2006-07-10 09:34:44
RDMC
Enemy Wheelbarrow Spotted..!!
+736|6794|Area 51
There was one episode, of Car Capers on which they tested all kinds of weird thing on cars, one of them being, would a piece of fruite, or vegetable make the engine stall of something, their answer: No.
But they used an V-8 engine, whilst smaller cars, which we have alot of here in Europe, don't have V-8's.
So I disagree on their verdict.
2006-07-10 09:50:46
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
There are way too many variables for those two tards to test, with your first reference there is bullet shape (boat tail or straight trailing edge), tip (pointed/flat/concave), composition (lead=higher density=higher inertia) and coating (teflon coated?), caliber, load (how much powder is in each shell), rifled or smoothbore, rate of twist in rifled barrels, and muzzle length just to throw a few off the top of my head, what about salt water as it lowers the density? What about moving or frothy water as this also lowers the density (this is the main reason it's so hard to swim up if you get tossed from your craft in a whitewater run), that was hilarious when they broke their box, right before they fired my dad and I said simultaneously "They're gonna blow that tank".
2006-07-10 09:56:27
THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|6999|AUS, Canberra

RDMC(2) wrote:

There was one episode, of Car Capers on which they tested all kinds of weird thing on cars, one of them being, would a piece of fruite, or vegetable make the engine stall of something, their answer: No.
But they used an V-8 engine, whilst smaller cars, which we have alot of here in Europe, don't have V-8's.
So I disagree on their verdict.
doesnt matter, all cars have the same perfect fuel air ratio. which is 14.7:1

so it shouldnt matter really how big the engine is.
2006-07-10 09:58:28
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
yeah, but then they didn't overhaul the exhaust system to ensure a perfect seal either, if enough gases leak out at the header, weld seams, and joints it can still clunk on
2006-07-10 10:00:49
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6747|Montucky
the didn't say what type of bullet just grain, from what i could tell they were;
9mm, FMJ
12 Guage, Slug
.223 Hollow Point
30-06, FMJ
.50 Cal black powder Slug
.50 Cal BMG, FMJ
2006-07-10 10:14:14
Ether151
Banned
+22|6889
The reason that the bullets frag at such a short distance is the bullet is red hot when it leaves the barell of a gun, and any one that has had chemistry class has put a cold water in to a hot beaker and it shaters or if you live in a cold climate you dont throw hot water on a frosted windshied.  This is the same thing, the sudden change in temp. causes the excited atoms of the bullet to rapidly slow down and because the temp. goes from one extreme to another the bullet basicaly shatters, regardless of shape or bullet weight.  Velocity and other things like the impact also play in to this, but the main reason is the temp.

Last edited by Ether151 (2006-07-10 10:26:31)

2006-07-10 12:38:56
TwistedX
Aviator
+26|7023|Oklahoma
If they tested all the variables dicovery would go broke, i just think they choose some the the wrong variables to do.
2006-07-10 13:02:00
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7001|PNW

Military research has put alot of thought into underwater ballistics. Anyone curious enough should look into that.
2006-07-10 13:20:09
Krappyappy
'twice cooked beef!'
+111|7049
mythbusters, while being a good show, is far from being scientifically rigorous.

they just don't have the time or the intention of adhering to actual scientific protocol. it's a tv show for entertainment, don't expect it to be anything more.

and really, would you want to watch them conduct a block-design experiment with stratified sampling and 95% statistical significance? that'd get real boring, real fast.
2006-07-10 13:23:55
Mustang99
Member
+9|6753

Erkut.hv wrote:

Did they use buckshot or a slug int he shotgun? I would think a smaller projectile would have less area of resistance, hence travel further.

Other than that, I have no idea.
slug
2006-07-10 18:23:27
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA

Krappyappy wrote:

mythbusters, while being a good show, is far from being scientifically rigorous.

they just don't have the time or the intention of adhering to actual scientific protocol. it's a tv show for entertainment, don't expect it to be anything more.

and really, would you want to watch them conduct a block-design experiment with stratified sampling and 95% statistical significance? that'd get real boring, real fast.
exactly, and I understand their point, I just get pissed when I see them turn to each other and say "Myth Busted!!" rather than say "Myth does not support the one limited scenario our pitiful excuse for a brain trust can come up with
2006-07-10 19:08:52
Stags
Member
+26|6885
Uhh... they actually do test what ever they do over and over and over again.  They just don't show it.  Hmm... I do believe they had an episode about a week or so ago that covered this.

They even showed what little footage they had of the other tests.  They do them but they don't film them all if it isn't important.  They only show what is needed to give you a sense of what they did to prove or disprove the test.


Although at times I can think of an angel that they didn't go over on the show, so I don't know if they're entirely accurate but they are fairly accurate if you think logically about the myth.  Some of them you know are going to be busted right off the bat.
2006-07-10 19:17:49
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6756|Portland, OR USA

THA wrote:

RDMC(2) wrote:

There was one episode, of Car Capers on which they tested all kinds of weird thing on cars, one of them being, would a piece of fruite, or vegetable make the engine stall of something, their answer: No.
But they used an V-8 engine, whilst smaller cars, which we have alot of here in Europe, don't have V-8's.
So I disagree on their verdict.
doesnt matter, all cars have the same perfect fuel air ratio. which is 14.7:1

so it shouldnt matter really how big the engine is.
While that may be true, a V8 has MUCH more rotational inertia than an L4.  So a stutter is more likely to be overcome by the piston's natural tendency to continue in it's direction.  Even if an engine does stall, if the pistons are moving and the key is "on" the engine will restart.  In fact, if you have a manual and the battery dies, you can push it in neutral, drop it in gear at about 3-5 mph and it fires right up.

That being said, of course they can't test all variables.  In the instance where a large variable or scenerio has been missed, they've actually gone back and retested myths with the new info/data/scenerios.  I've never seen these retests overturn a ruling though.
2006-07-11 05:10:12
Krappyappy
'twice cooked beef!'
+111|7049

Stags wrote:

Uhh... they actually do test what ever they do over and over and over again.  They just don't show it.  Hmm... I do believe they had an episode about a week or so ago that covered this.

They even showed what little footage they had of the other tests.  They do them but they don't film them all if it isn't important.  They only show what is needed to give you a sense of what they did to prove or disprove the test.

Although at times I can think of an angel that they didn't go over on the show, so I don't know if they're entirely accurate but they are fairly accurate if you think logically about the myth.  Some of them you know are going to be busted right off the bat.
that's all well and good but if they don't show it, then we as critical-minded scientific thinkers cannot cut them any slack. all we have to go on is what they show us on tv. they don't make any attempt to say 'we tested this 100 times and were able to negate the null hypothesis.' rather, they just show three trials and go 'myth busted!'

it would be as if a scientist did an experiment 100 times, but didn't mention any of them in his paper. what good is it then?
2006-07-11 05:30:16
.:XDR:.PureFodder
Member
+105|7058
It's all about rheology. At short time scale (ie. fast moving) the water molecules cannot relax (move around) fast enough and so the water acts as a solid. slower moving bullets allow the water to move out of the way fast enough, so the water acts like a liquid. and can be penetrated.

To test this, make really thick custard. You can easily push your fist through it but if you punch it it acts like a solid rubber and your fist doesn't penetrate it at all. Go on, try fisting some custard.

If anyone is from the UK they did it on brainiac. they filled a swimming pool with custard and you can run across it no problem just like it was a solid, but if you stop moving you sink.
2006-07-11 05:31:05
THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|6999|AUS, Canberra

puckmercury wrote:

THA wrote:

RDMC(2) wrote:

There was one episode, of Car Capers on which they tested all kinds of weird thing on cars, one of them being, would a piece of fruite, or vegetable make the engine stall of something, their answer: No.
But they used an V-8 engine, whilst smaller cars, which we have alot of here in Europe, don't have V-8's.
So I disagree on their verdict.
doesnt matter, all cars have the same perfect fuel air ratio. which is 14.7:1

so it shouldnt matter really how big the engine is.
In fact, if you have a manual and the battery dies, you can push it in neutral, drop it in gear at about 3-5 mph and it fires right up.
it is also possible in an auto but you need to traveling at a speed fast enough so that the stall converter is locked up.
2006-07-11 05:33:19
PuckMercury
6 x 9 = 42
+298|6756|Portland, OR USA
difficult to do by yourself, and it was more used as an example of an engine's inertial tendencies.

 

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