Souls
Member
+14|6892|Garden City, KS. USA
Monday, July 03, 2006

GENEVA — Switzerland said Monday that Israel has been violating international law in its Gaza offensive by heavy destruction and endangering civilians in acts of collective punishment banned under the Geneva conventions on the conduct of warfare.

"A number of actions by the Israeli defense forces in their offensive against the Gaza Strip have violated the principle of proportionality and are to be seen as forms of collective punishment, which is forbidden," the Swiss Foreign Ministry said in a statement.

"There is no doubt that Israel has not taken the precautions required of it in international law to protect the civilian population and infrastructure," it said. The statement did not name the Geneva Conventions, but it referred to provisions of the 1949 treaty, which is regarded as the cornerstone of international law on the obligations of warring and occupying powers.

Switzerland, as the depository of the conventions, has a responsibility to call meetings if it finds general problems with the implementation of the treaty, but it does not have any special powers to interpret the document

Both the principle of proportionality and the ban on collective punishment are found in the Fourth Geneva Convention, which spells out the obligations of occupying powers toward the civilian population under their control.

Israel has used tanks, troops, gunboats and aircraft to attack the Gaza area over the past week to press militants to free a captured Israeli soldier.

When it launched its first large-scale military action in Gaza since withdrawing from the strip last summer, Israel's declared purpose was to lean on militants to release Cpl. Gilad Shalit. In statements since, government officials have said they also mean to disable the Hamas government and stop gunmen from launching rockets at southern Israel.

"They have criticized us even though we are showing restraint," Aviv Shir-On, Israel's ambassador in Bern, told The Associated Press. "We are disappointed that the Swiss government did not issue such statements when Israel's civilian population was constantly under attack from the Gaza Strip."

Shir-On said the criticism was unfair when Israel was supplying people in Gaza with electricity, water, fresh food and necessary medicine even though Hamas was sworn to the Jewish state's destruction.

Switzerland also called for the "rapid release" of Shalit, but said Israel had an obligation "to respect international humanitarian law in the measures it undertakes to liberate the captured soldier."

It said Israel's destruction last week of the main Gaza electricity power station and its attack on the office of the Palestinian prime minister was unjustified. It also urged Israel to free Hamas legislators, including eight ministers who have been seized.

"The arbitrary arrests of a large number of democratically elected representatives of the people and ministers ... cannot be justified," the statement said.

Switzerland said it had earmarked an additional 1 million francs to provide medical supplies to civilians in Gaza.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201964,00.html

Thought this was an interesting read. It brings up a lot of valid points on both sides of the issue. Israel needs to chill out and Hamas was freaking stupid for the kidnapping.  Dont really care what you all think of Foxnews its not my only news source.   I think this was an AP story to start.

Last edited by Souls (2006-07-03 21:08:35)

kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
waaah, so what, Israel just supposed to hand pieces of paper to Hamas, PLO, PLFPL, PLPLFFPFP, FLCL, and anyone else that wants to send a homemade rocket into the middle of a neighborhood, too bad they don't apply the same logic every time the Palestinians break a ceasefire and purposefully target the Israeli civilian population, tell me what part of the Geneva convention protects the right to dig a tunnel and kidnap someone?
Hurricane
Banned
+1,153|6859|Washington, DC

And the Palestinians are justified in kidnapping an Israeli soldier?
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
The difference is that the Israeli government is commiting the acts on it's side, whereas on the Palestinian side it's NGOs.

And as for this:

kr@cker wrote:

dig a tunnel and kidnap someone?
Didn't they get him in a firefight.

Besides which, your response suggests that the Isrealis don't purposely target civilians and civilian structures, which is demonstrably false.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
They target militant leaders which deliberately hide in civilian structures, which in itself is a violation of the GC, I was refering to the stray arty shell that hit the beach, which everyone keeps bringing up as if they had done it on purpose.
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command
Switzerland should do what it is best known for: remain neutral and stfu.
They probably got some accounts frozen for dealing with terrorist laundering money and thats what they are raising a stink,  Boo Hoo.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
So, the powerplant wasn't a civilian target?

Also, alexander, read the article.  It's Sweden's job to call a meeting if they see a breach of the Geneva Conventions.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6919|Tampa Bay Florida

Bubbalo wrote:

So, the powerplant wasn't a civilian target?

Also, alexander, read the article.  It's Sweden's job to call a meeting if they see a breach of the Geneva Conventions.
the f*ck does Sweden come into this?  lol......
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
AAAAAARGH!  Quiet you!  They're practically the same country
Superslim
BF2s Frat Brother
+211|6921|Calgary
Hmmm, interesting, this is the same country that let the Nazi's transport Jews in rail cars thru their country to concentration camps. Switzerland, yaa thats right, the Swiss. And they are crying about what??? Of course, I know some of you know how the Swiss let the Nazi's use Swiss bank accounts to hold all the $$ they were stealing.....
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
They also helped Jews who were hiding their money from the Nazis.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA

Bubbalo wrote:

So, the powerplant wasn't a civilian target?

Also, alexander, read the article.  It's Sweden's job to call a meeting if they see a breach of the Geneva Conventions.
no it wasn't, if I were invading say, Georgia (the state in which I live), one of the first things I would do is take out plant Scherer, the 2nd largest coal burning power plant in the western hemisphere (it was at one time, I think it still is) which in turn would disrupt the power supply of the whole Eastern seaboard, this way I wouldn't have to risk nuke contamination by hitting the Savannah River complex or....damn...what's that one down near Dothan Alabama? ...the point is power plants whose destruction don't in turn inhibit my advance or aren't impossible to use once control has been established make viable targets......

did I just hear a bunch of dataloggers at Langley spin up?

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-07-03 22:07:56)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
Ok, fine.  Now, where is the risk of nuclear contamination in Palestine?  More importantly, how did this attack harm the militants?
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
your missing the point, I was saying that there is a strategic advantage to denying your enemy electrical power, I only used the various plants to explain the reasoning behind my choosing Scherer over the other ones, as there is also a health advantage to not nuking myself, overall it was just an example of strategic thinking, not meant to be a direct correlation, just to illustrate that yes, my enemy not having power = bad for them, good for me
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
Okay, fine.  Now, what was the strategic advantage in cutting power?
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6784
Israel breaking international law? No way!! You can't be serious. They usually abide so well to international law....
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7070|Cologne, Germany

Superslim wrote:

Hmmm, interesting, this is the same country that let the Nazi's transport Jews in rail cars thru their country to concentration camps. Switzerland, yaa thats right, the Swiss. And they are crying about what??? Of course, I know some of you know how the Swiss let the Nazi's use Swiss bank accounts to hold all the $$ they were stealing.....
they have an obligation to act if they see a possible violation of the GC.
And what does the current swiss government have to do with what happened 60 years ago ?
Don't you grow tired of those WW II references ?
B.Schuss
I'm back, baby... ( sort of )
+664|7070|Cologne, Germany

kr@cker wrote:

your missing the point, I was saying that there is a strategic advantage to denying your enemy electrical power, I only used the various plants to explain the reasoning behind my choosing Scherer over the other ones, as there is also a health advantage to not nuking myself, overall it was just an example of strategic thinking, not meant to be a direct correlation, just to illustrate that yes, my enemy not having power = bad for them, good for me
in a conventional military conflict between two nations, I'd agree. But this is the IDF fighting NGO militants, and attacking a civilian power plant will do more harm to the civilian population than to the militants.

clearly, the israelis use collective punishment here. With the deployment of the IDF, they are using a broad sword although they should be using a scalpel.

I can understand they want to do anything they can to get the soldier back, but atm, I have my doubts their tactics will prove sucessful...
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
Personally, I can't understand that they want to do anything they can to get him back.  He's a soldier, if you sign up for the army, you risk death.  Fact of service.
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6911|Stillwater, Ok

Bubbalo wrote:

Okay, fine.  Now, what was the strategic advantage in cutting power?
The strategic advantage of hitting a plant means, no refrigeration, no AC, telephone lines down, communication is more difficult.  Gets hot and your food doesnt last as long. The civilian population gets sick of it and overthrows militants....possibly.  Or they just end up hating you but you know what its Palestine they will hate Israel no matter what they do.  So yes when launching an attack disabling power is a good move.  I mean hell the US has done it in every major conflict.  You take out the power, your enemy gets weaker end of story.

And for the other part...Israel has a MANDATORY 2 years service in the military for EVERY citizen after they graduate High School.  So no he didnt have the chance to say no i dont wanna.  Even so Israel's policy when it come to dealing with militants has been...we WILL come and get you no matter what.  You may end up dead, but your body will return home to your family no matter what.  So more research once again Bubbalo.
JahManRed
wank
+646|6857|IRELAND

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

The strategic advantage of hitting a plant means, no refrigeration, no AC, telephone lines down, communication is more difficult.  Gets hot and your food doesnt last as long. The civilian population gets sick of it and overthrows militants....possibly.  Or they just end up hating you but you know what its Palestine they will hate Israel no matter what they do.  So yes when launching an attack disabling power is a good move.  I mean hell the US has done it in every major conflict.  You take out the power, your enemy gets weaker end of story.
That might be the plan, but the reality is civilians who have nothing to do with hamas etc loose electricity and basic amenities and gets pissed off at the collective punishments, lifts an AK and fights. The power was blown up in Iraqi prior to the invasion, but the USA had cooperations lined up to re-establish power again in a timetable to get the ordinary citizens power up and win hearts and minds. I don't think we will see Israeli contractors rebuilding these power plants.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

The strategic advantage of hitting a plant means, no refrigeration, no AC, telephone lines down, communication is more difficult.  Gets hot and your food doesnt last as long. The civilian population gets sick of it and overthrows militants....possibly.  Or they just end up hating you but you know what its Palestine they will hate Israel no matter what they do.  So yes when launching an attack disabling power is a good move.  I mean hell the US has done it in every major conflict.  You take out the power, your enemy gets weaker end of story.
Which makes it a direct attack on the civilian populace to attempt to change their minds.  A textbook case of terrorism.

2ndLt.Tucker wrote:

And for the other part...Israel has a MANDATORY 2 years service in the military for EVERY citizen after they graduate High School.  So no he didnt have the chance to say no i dont wanna.  Even so Israel's policy when it come to dealing with militants has been...we WILL come and get you no matter what.  You may end up dead, but your body will return home to your family no matter what.  So more research once again Bubbalo.
He could leave the country, or refuse to serve.  He'll go to jail or be kicked out, I'm sure, but he had that choice.  So no, I don't need to do more research.  And how does the fact that Israels policy has been "let's go in all guns blazing" make any difference?  All that means is that this case matches with their modus operandi, it doesn't affect the merits of it.
HM1{N}
Member
+86|6873|East Coast via Los Angeles, CA
How funny:

"Shir-On said the criticism was unfair when Israel was supplying people in Gaza with electricity, water, fresh food and necessary medicine even though Hamas was sworn to the Jewish state's destruction."


Basically he's saying "we stole your land, murdered your people to build settlements, displaced you from your home, and disarmed you so you can't fight back, but it's all good.  We gave you electricity, water, fresh food and medicine...all the things you had before we came in and destroyed your lives.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
I might give 2 shits about the article if they would come down on Pal for their violations once in a while
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790
Except that Palestinian NGOs are making the attacks.  Does Palestine even have an army?

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