BF2S Forums Alright, I'll say it - Marx had a good point.

kr@cker wrote:

if their minds are so great, they would thrive in such an environment

How can they thrive when they can't afford to buy food?

kr@cker wrote:

where it fails is that, just like other aspects of communism, there is no incentive for the public school do provide a superior product,what parent wouldn't want their child to go to a superior school?

Point taken, the problem there is that education should not be a product to be sold. All people should have equal access to in order to contribute the world.

Now granted, there are public schools in place that people can advance through, but my point was helping the people get there. Not whether all schools should be public or private.

I'm sure every parent wants there kids to go to a superior school. But what's the percentage of parents that can afford it? According to this http://www.capenet.org/facts.html only 11.3%. So you want only 11.3% of your learning population to get the best education and lead the country on? Do we need more burgers or doctors?  Besides, if you privatize all school, you widen the gap between a good education and a bad one. This will ultimately lessen the number of those who get well paying jobs. That doesn't sound like a good idea when the population continues to grow.

kr@cker wrote:

this will also directly result in more efficient use of taxpayer money

how is investing in new minds, especially those which we will depend on in the future, any less efficient use of tax dollars? I can see about 100 billion that could be taken from a single department  here  and used 'more effeciently'

Last edited by Havazn (2006-06-21 17:52:43)

kr@cker wrote:

since when has anything run by a government agency of any nation ever been efficient?

Efficiency as an end in itself is meaningless.  And besides, what you're really talking about is fairness, which is often at odds with efficiency.

Check this out:
Why should the worst offenders get the best treatment?

It's just one guy's blog, but the brief example he cites highlights the difficulty in reconciling fairness and efficiency quite well.

BTW, I'm not at all suggesting anybody's points are Nazi-like or whatever.  I think you both raise good points about what's fair, and what will ultimately work.

Communism has NO motivation.  One person can work 60 hours a week for the good of the country, and they won't see a dime more than Mr. Slacker.  Communism is an IDEAL form of government, but it's just not practical.  Not to mention that people that are under a totalitarian rule are no longer people.  Do yourself a favor and read 1984.  It will show you every reason why communism is a horrible form of government.  The main point - power corrupts.  And as kenderson wrote, you could work your ass off to be a scientist, push yourself to the limits, be all that you can be, and get the exact same ammount of money as a dude who picks up horseshit.  It's a great idea for robots, not people.

kr@cker wrote:

How do you tell a communist? Well, it's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an anti-Communist? It's someone who understands Marx and Lenin.
Ronald Reagan

I'm for the concept but against the application as it is impossible.  Why is it impossible?  Because the attitude of SpecialOps prevails.  No one sees motivation for the greater good.  They all just want to serve themselves directly rather than indirectly by serving the greater good.  Just like BF2 ... teamwork FTW.

[PHPR]-SpecialOps wrote:

Communism has NO motivation.

You are only thinking in terms of monitary values. Communism is about success as a human race as a whole, not as an individual. The motivation in it, is prosperity.

[PHPR]-SpecialOps wrote:

One person can work 60 hours a week for the good of the country, and they won't see a dime more than Mr. Slacker

You obviously didn't read the original post where he said:

puckmercury wrote:

You take what you need to be comfortable and you provide what you are able based on your skill set.

There is a difference the Socialism put into practice by USSR and China, and the Communism put forth by Marx. USSR and China both utilized a totalitarian regime in order to enforce THEIR version of socialism. This does not mean communism=totalitarianism. Besides, we're all slaves in one way or another, just most people don't see Money as our captors.

Havazn wrote:

[PHPR]-SpecialOps wrote:

Communism has NO motivation.

You are only thinking in terms of monitary values. Communism is about success as a human race as a whole, not as an individual. The motivation in it, is prosperity.

[PHPR]-SpecialOps wrote:

One person can work 60 hours a week for the good of the country, and they won't see a dime more than Mr. Slacker

You obviously didn't read the original post where he said:

puckmercury wrote:

You take what you need to be comfortable and you provide what you are able based on your skill set.

There is a difference the Socialism put into practice by USSR and China, and the Communism put forth by Marx. USSR and China both utilized a totalitarian regime in order to enforce THEIR version of socialism. This does not mean communism=totalitarianism. Besides, we're all slaves in one way or another, just most people don't see Money as our captors.

you are implying that capitalism has nothing to offer humanity, meanwhile the most amazing advancements in the history of man have been products of free-market  cultures of one degree or another, the basic theme of caps is "build a better mousetrap", supply and demand is a law of nature, communism actively rails against it in an attempt to tell people what exactly it is that they demand

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-06-30 13:00:07)

Havazn wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

In communism there is no incentive, why should I try hard if I'm just going to reap the same as the high school drop-out? Hell the only time a communist or socialist society has ever contributed to the advancement of human culture it was because it was forced to COMPETE against a capitalist society (like in the cold war space race), competition itself a basic principle of capitalism. Capitalism is the laws of evolution applied to economics, the sick weak and old get picked off the pack allowing the strong to breed and multiply, communism is the antithesis of this action, allowing those who have nothing to offer to restrain the advancement of the pack.

I should rephrase. "Today's capitalist society is is a short term, short sighted benefit"

The communism we speak of isn't the same as the ones that have been applied throughout history. It is merely the idea of helping your fellow man. More a socialism ideal than a facist one.

I agree that the whopper flipper shouldn't be paid the same an engineer, however, I feel that he should have the same opportunities the engineer had to get to that point. As much as a capitalistic society may say "everyone has the opportunity" it just isn't so. There are poor public education systems, tuition on post secondary schools is greatly expensive and there isn't enough social aid to the children of the Keisha's out there. Forget how she got there, should her children grow up to the same existence? Where is their opportunity?

Survival of the fittest is fine for animals, but wouldn't you like to think man is more than just beasts? That our consciousness allows us to be more than animals? Think about how many great minds are out there that could have cured cancer, taken us to the stars or brought so much to us but were never given the opportunity to do so.

That is my communism.

The average man is nothing more than a primal beast capable of conceptualization on a mediocre level. You expect too much of the homo sapien. Go die you meanie!

(P.S. Modified Communism would be more appropriate if it had a scheme to gauge significance of varying vocations throughout.)

(P.S.#2. True Communism is only proper were AI, robotics, and genetics to take giant leaps [provided the generation of the genetically unmodified have died off].)

Last edited by Xietsu (2006-06-30 13:53:59)

Communism is genious.........but because people are selfish and greedy it can never work. I dont think a doctor would like making the same amount of money as a newspaper man.

I don't believe in either capitalism or communism.  Socialism is the way to be.  And I think it would work in the USA, too.  As long as we have the party system and balance everything just right, that is.