BF2S Forums Opinions of President Bush, now and then...

dshak wrote:

I back up my point, well, Bush does every time he opens his mouth. Just watch the tape of the recent summit press conference with the president of Argentina, as I said before, its like watching re-runs of he-haw. The Argentine president just stood there dumbfounded that the guy speaking was the so called leader of the free word.

Please don't throw grades at me to make your point, everone in here knows it doesn't take a brilliant person to get good grades. Some of the dumbest people I've ever met had a 4.0 GPA, and it also doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how guys like GW get into places like Yale. I work in the college environment, infact there are kids on my team that are potentially legally retarded yet still get decent grades. (sadly, I'm only half joking about that)

Also, can't really use Clinton or Kerry against me on this one either, because I never said he wasn't smart by comparison, you did, and I never voted for either one of those guys either.

Military service ALWAYS should be an issue in my mind, which is one of my anti-clinton points. You can call him an "Airforce NG Interceptor pilot" all you want, but the closest he ever came to combat was watching it on the evening news. I think if a guy saw one minute in country that qualifies him.

my position on this applies to ALL candidates, liberal or conservative - UNLESS YOU'VE BEEN SHOT AT YOURSELF YOU SHOULD'T HAVE THE RIGHT TO SEND OTHER PEOPLE TO GET SHOT AT. PERIOD.

Mccain was a great republican candidate who couldn't win the primary because he was against big money, instead big money, the POSTER CHILD of big money won the primary. it was a shame, because Mccain would have been the best of ALL the candidates, but gasp... he actually took a firm stance on an unpopular and controversial issue. What a moron, can't win elections that way can you!?!

Bush is not a complete moron, perhaps somewhere between idiot and moron... but the idea of calling him smart, nice try. You are right, media is very biased, but he makes it kind of easy. Just because someone is surrounded by smart people doesn't make them smart, and its a little too obvious when he stops reading the notecards his staff puts in his pocket and does a little improv... too many bushisms to quote.

This thread is asking what people think of bush, not the bush administration. my opinions on those two have pretty wide gap.

I have not been interested in politics long enough to notice a trend.  But does the best candidate usually not make it past the primaries?  In the Illinois democratic primaries for governor the same thing happened, but might be in my opinion only.

I did like McCain and his stance, too bad he didnt make it.  I recall about a group making calls in the south during the primaries informing voters that he had a black baby

good lord man, you really miss the point don't you. ya got me, my whole position is based around what the Argentine president thinks of him...

pretty sure your exact words were something like "he had the same GPA in college as Kerry." sorry, thought that meant you were using grades.

I thought through my position on military command, I stick by it. please don't presume to tell me what i have an haven't thought through. I'm not even sure what your point is there... at this stage, in the current state of the world, I do not believe you have any right to command troops or order them to fight unless you've done your share of fighting. i thought about it long and hard this time.

I also could care less what other world leaders think, in fact, I don't even know why you said that.   I didn't use the summit conference as an example because I was saying the argentine president thought he was a jackass, I personally thought he was a jackass.

wow, you really think you're safer now than you were before 911? honestly? wow.

So, you need specific examples do you, here's what 5 minutes got me from the Washington Post alone... maybe he just had a bad month in april, his brain was sore from all that high level thinking?

"It means your own money would grow better than that which the government can make it grow. And that's important."—April 29, 2005

"But Iraq has—have got people there that are willing to kill, and they're hard-nosed killers. And we will work with the Iraqis to secure their future." —April 28, 2005

"Well, we've made the decision to defeat the terrorists abroad so we don't have to face them here at home. And when you engage the terrorists abroad, it causes activity and action."—April 28, 2005

"We expect the states to show us whether or not we're achieving simple objectives—like literacy, literacy in math, the ability to read and write."—April 28, 2005

"It's in our country's interests to find those who would do harm to us and get them out of harm's way."—April 28, 2005

"We have enough coal to last for 250 years, yet coal also prevents an environmental challenge." —April 20, 2005

"Part of the facts is understanding we have a problem, and part of the facts is what you're going to do about it."—April 15, 2005

"We look forward to analyzing and working with legislation that will make—it would hope—put a free press's mind at ease that you're not being denied information you shouldn't see."
—April 14, 2005

Shall I continue? If you think these are too stupid to believe, do the research yourself, personally if I spend another second looking at the transcripts of Bush press events my head will burst. Bush is an idiot, please don't make me prove it anymore.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-12 21:41:06)

It is Generally excepted that Testing in an academic environment is a good if not the only way to measure intelligence. This point you must concede if for Reality sake alone. Can we agree.

    I never met anyone who in 6 years of scrutiny Did not stumble over a word in a speech or become Tongue Tied. The Media goes over this with fine tooth comb in an effort to ruin our image in the world.

    Yet we never got to see bill Clinton Heroically Scanning The Korean DMZ for ten minutes with the Lens caps still on His Binoculars.

Or Al gore stating " a Leopard doesn't change his stripes "

What is your opinion of someone who stutters?
Richard Burton was the Finast Speaker i ever heard but alas not a great leader.

   If you asked the People in WTC Before 911 if they felt safe most would have Said " completely "
They weren't , I am safer. My enemy's are in flight, hiding or using suicide tactics, this is a sign of Desperation or perhaps the Japanese Really won WWII.
A WAR started. If we ducked it or pulled out, Will Israel Go away Making Arabs love us?
Will the Palestinians just Forget about the whole thing and just all Get along with us like the Apaches and Sioux did? History tells us no.
why don't you ask me if I " AM " safer than Before WTC 93?

    I would love it If only combat Vets could Run for office. Better Yet ones that hold Medals for Valor. We have Enough of them, That is not our system. What if we had 60 years of Peace. Not unthinkable is it. Where would we get our leaders or Even Generals to Noncoms  for that matter with your logic and if a War started after 60 years of peace would the Current president Forfeit it.

     In the End its a lot of name calling not much more. All I ask is that anyone who Actually votes Studies and forms his " OWN " opinion and doesn't react in a herd mentality like a Lamb Following the latest Hollywood Slogans.

I studied real hard... didn't vote in the presidential election. I agree that there are plenty of examples of all presidents doing silly things... but Bush, he feeds them to use like its his job. he is NOT a smart guy, nothing your going to say will change my OPINION on that, because thats just what it is, an opinion.

the real fun begins when he's speaking on his own behalf, not prewritten speeches. all the quotes from above came from press conferences or public events and were in response to questions, in other words... look what happens when he has to think on his feet.

also, there is a big difference between studdering and not understanding, or taking the time to understand, the way your own language works.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-13 12:23:36)

try again.

learning to fly an aircraft is a skill set, just like teaching a circus monkey to juggle, though I'll be it a more complicated skills set.

wait, does this mean I have to give way to the idea he's smarter than a circus monkey? rats you got me. Oh, and "he couldn't have gone if he begged to?" give me a fricken break. If he wanted to then he wouldn't have joined the air national guard to avoid real service.

Keep defending the moron, I don't care. So he can fly a plane, still doesn't justify the fact that the idiot can't put a coherent sentence together without a team of speech writers. His father was at least intellectually worthy of the job, but GW's whole history is that of a rich and privledged bafoon, from the DUI to his failed attempts at running an oil company, to his failed attempts at running a baseball team... why not try president of the united states right? its got to be easier than all the other crap he bombed at his whole life.

He can't speak, but he can fly a plane?? sorry, in the job of president of the united states i don't think we'll be asking him to fly any planes, this isn't 'independence day.' we will however, ask him to explain himself from time to time... the circus monkey does a better job by throwing crap in my opinion.

You asked for examples, I gave you a plethora... your responses are "but he can fly a plane. people who studder can be smart too. his GPA was teh same as Kerry's. Bill Clinton left a lense cap on some binoculars once." you're really doing a whole heck of a lot to persuad me here.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-13 15:33:54)

yeah,

I'm ignorant, in this case, because I have based my opinion on the facts before me and a countless number of factors and examples. right?

Hey, I was mildy excited when GW won, because I had some real respect for his dad, who I thought got unjustly saddled with the economic fallout of Reagans blue light special super arms race which crumbled the federal budget (hey, not saying that was bad, I prefered that method of whipping the soviets to to nuclear holocaust, but its long term effects on the economy were pretty bad).

I've given this guy every chance. he's not an intelligent individual, and that OPINION is based on his track record in just about every single venture he's been in

sigh,

- instant cereal said "to say bush is unintelligent is ignorant." I didn't pick that word unassisted, thank you very much. I don't hate Bush at all, in fact you must not have even read my post above, I was all for him when he was first elected. You haven't replied to me about his failed oil company, or his trouble with the Texas Rangers, or his multiple incidents of unbelievable stupidity, like the DUI he had expunged.

your response to the many many quotes i fed you was about studdering, not the same thing at all.

and to cereal, lack of charisma was al gore, lack of ability to say simple words in the right order, thats george bush.

use all the fancy words you want to describe his plane (all weather, thats nice, much better than planes that melt in rain or explode when its windy), but in reality it IS a skill set. want a better example, like DRIVING A CAR. is everyone who drives smart? does that make driving easy? no. I've had some flying lessons, though I never followed it through to conclusion, and its an aquired skill like anything else. you don't do any complex math up there, you don't have to do advanced geometry. Its just not a good enough example, even if you do keep adding words to the kind of plane he flew.

hey fox,

I'm not flogging you at all. there are some reasons and things about the bush administration that would point to a higher intelligence, but based on what I know and have seen with my own eyes, heard with my own ears... it is my BELIEF that some of those good decisions are made for him. My example, which has yet to be disproven, is that when forced to think on his feet in front of press he seems to perform pretty badly. I just can't believe if he personally had such a firm grasp on his own position he would stumble so badly all the time, and its not always just a mispronounciation or a misplaced word, he genuinely appears to struggle with complex ideas and questions. Unlike someone else on here who said they don't like who he has surrounded himself with, I actually did, especially in the begining, though it disturbs me that Colin Powell, who I am a huge fan of, has distanced himself from Bush as of late.

you make a good point on FDR, but in the end I still believe the real heros of the second world war were people like Marshall and Eisenhower. Honestly I think his greatest accomplishment was domestic... all those policies you dislike were responsible for bringing an end to the most crippling depression in modern history, though I'd probably agree with you that 80 years later most of them are more of a drain than a benefit. It is my opinion that to command then one should have served, but I use the word 'should' and not the word 'must.' I grant it is entirely possible to be an adequate military leader without such experience, but possible doesn't mean likely and I have yet to see any brilliant military strategy on the part of Bush. While I support his decision to invade Iraq for humanitarian reasons I haven't exactly been blown away by his lack of exit strategy. He constantly says "we'll be there as long as it takes." as long as WHAT takes exactly? I'm tired of him dodging the question by sayings "its complicated." it IS complicated, so let's see a strategy that rises to the occasion please. I'm not asking for a surefire solution, we all know those don't exist and especially not in a region that is as big a mess as this, but how about an objective or two and a design for getting there.

My position on military service is a personal preference and nothing more, but I don't claim it to be any more than that and I don't disclude the possibility for exceptions. I just don't think Bush is one of those exceptions.

I simply haven't seen enough evidence to believe he is an intelligent individual, while I have seen plenty to indicate the contrary, and that is why I have the opinion I do. I believe Bush is symbolic of the trend in presidents, not necessarily our best and brightest, but someone that the real political minds can run through the rat race and ring out the other side. I've said many times before, I think the best people for the job are essentially too smart to want it.

Then again, once again, I really did like John McCain. You just don't win elections in a big money system by challenging big money, especially from the Republican ticket.

I should also add that I am the son of a retired Air Force Colonel, and no doubt my father has influenced my thinking over time, its unavoidable. I'm sure he is largely responsible for my personal views on service and leadership, but it relates to my own profession as well as a college coach, and I can remember back to my days as a player... if someone is telling me how or what to do, their word carries a lot more weight if they have done it themselves. I have a clear conscience when I condition my athletes, put them through two-a-days, etc... because everything they do I have been through myself. Not only does it qualify my authority to ask it of them, but it also means I understand what asking it of them means to THEM. I was there!

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-13 22:35:27)

for the record... I have no clue what half of this post means. maybe i'm the one who lacks intelligence.

no tow lines cut at all actually. also, i find this a little amusing... being the stickler for a good argument myself I did some of my own research. what I found about GWs super technical complicated jet is that one of the primary reasons for its increased production and modification from the F102 was ease of operation in comparison to other fighters, I submit part of what I found on USAF Museum technical archives:

"The F-106 uses a Hughes MA-1 electronic guidance and fire control system. After takeoff, the MA-1 can be given control of the aircraft to fly it to the proper altitude and attack position. Then it can fire the Genie and Falcon missiles, break off the attack run, and return the aircraft to the vicinity of its base. The pilot takes control again for the landing."

If you don't believe me you can look for yourself, though all I did was copy and paste:
http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/modern_flight/mf30.htm

not sure how this helps your point... thats sounds a lot to me like it was the jet WITH THE BEST AUTOPILOT. haha

As fox will testify to I have no problem conceding a good point or acknowledging an opposing argument, you just haven't really made one yet, in my most humble of opinions.

D= first letter of my first name Shak=last four letters of my last name

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-13 22:51:00)

again, nice comeback. way to address the points. Nice debate, I post something that completely invalidates one of the key aspects of your argument, you call me illiterate. you're good at this you know.

Last edited by dshak (2005-11-14 06:32:38)

Horseman 77 wrote:

earlier the Argument is a Direct Quote From Dshak

" Please don't throw grades at me to make your point, everyone in here knows it doesn't take a brilliant person to get good grades.
Some of the dumbest people I've ever met had a 4.0 GPA "

Is this everyone's experience? Take this at face value.   

latter as a come back to " The Right stuff " References Dshak Responds !

" its an aquired skill like anything else. you don't do any complex math up there, you don't have to do advanced geometry. "

Anyone see a contradiction?

so it seems Someone has steamed full circle and cut his own tow line.

" But the Strawberries, that's where I had them! I proved with geometric logic"

anyway you made a liar out of me when I said I rest my case.

what's Dshak mean ? and what's a foxster.

I wish BF2 forums had a site where People Explain their Tags.

I will go to sleep now...standing up.

This is definetly my expereince, im 22 and finishing my senior year at Texas Tech.  I can tell you for a fact that some of the best grade holders in Mechanical Engineering (my major) are absolute idiots.  They are unread, usually arrogant though factual incorrect on the majority of statements they make, and absolutely have no ability to develop a visual or physical model in their head, a critical skill to engineers.  On the flip side, my friend Greg struggles through ME, barely passing his classes, he is one of the most creative and prolific engineers I have seen, amazing ability to model parts, to create a solution to a problem that nobody else would ahve though of, generally just a great engineer, his GPA? 2.1, the bare minimum to stay in school


No, I don't see the contradiction.  I think what dshak is referring to by "an acquried skill" is something that no longer requires concious thought, such as driving, orroller blading, or dare I say, flying?


And here I am lost, so yeah, Ill wait for a more literary clarification....


Red Fox is my usual game name, but it was taken here and in BF2, so I just made it RedFoxster and it worked, not really supposed to mean anything, but the fox part kind of comes fromt he concept of "out foxing people", I love making people kill themselves on their own claymores, things like that.


Have fun sleeping standing up, I usually prefer a bed or cute girl to sleep on (kidding), but hey, to each his own eh?

Last edited by redfoxster (2005-11-14 08:19:34)

your post with web site attached  Completely invalidated nothing.

One of my 1st points was that if he flew that thing he was smart, a fast thinker, had his Shit together Etc. You can not call a Living Jet Pilot Dumb. This is Irrefutable in my opinion and the majority of People with Knowledge on the Subject.

30 years later with all our technology At today's standards where All Aircraft are ten times safer. It is still a Dangerous Profession  for fast thinkers, To fly a fighter,  that is Reserved for the Best, Brightest and considered elite.

Tom Wolfe Wrote " they are on the level of Brain surgeons and that's Fast company "

  . Do you Really believe jet pilots can be dumb or Not Smart " like training a circus monkey to juggle " Do you REALLY ?  Why does the Armed Services keep aviation slots for there Very best? And Fighter Slots for the Very best of them.  Flying a Cessna or rollerblading cannot compare, in fact its laughable.  One Reason that BF 2 has its more frustrating moments is people can remain anonymous, Can you picture yourself stating this in public  or better yet in a Bar with an aviator?.

       I did not call you illiterate.
I see your posts everywhere, we visit the same threads. I said " More literate " and I Guarantee you read, that book and it " the Quote " will come to you later. I bet we have very similar libraries, this is a reason we banter.

    Admittedly There are (Professional) students who master only Academia and Usually they stay in academia  (and they ALL HATE Bush). Hence the term them who cant do Teach. and there are plenty of people who lacked formal Education who are Extremely smart and Successful. Mostly in Years past.

But for the most part these are exceptions to the Rule. Most Good Students Are Smart.  School Teaches you How to learn. Learning makes you Smarter The more you learn the Smarter you become, I cant Believe I even have to say this GOD!

What do you, guys do for a living may I ask and how do you Respond so fast? I am home sick.