TehSeraphim
Thread Ender
+58|6952|New Hampshire
I saw someone bring up lethal injections in another topic, and I thought I would make a debate question about it.

For debates sake, let's relegate this solely to the United States.

The 8th (I belive) Amendment to the Constitution of the United States forbids cruel and unusual punishment.  Currently in the US, a few states are debating about whether to get rid of lethal injection as a method of execution on these grounds.  Do you believe that lethal injection violates the Constitution?

Keep in mind we're not debating about the moral correctness of the death penalty, only whether or not lethal injection breaks the Constitution.

Discuss.

--My opinion is that yes, lethal injection does indeed break the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the Constitution.  I base this on the fact that there is a lot that goes up to an execution that a lot of people are not aware of.  Prior to being executed, an inmate is put onto death row and given a date of execution.  At no point in time is this date solid - many inmates are actually led into the building where they're going to be executed and given their final meal/time with their family, only to have their execution pushed back due to the pardons system, etc.  Imagine being led into the building you're going to be executed in and then being told "oh, just kidding, you're going to have to wait a while longer".

However, for the most part I believe it's cruel and unusual because of the injection itself.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two things injected into a prisoner that kills them.  The first drug that is injected paralyzes the inmate, so that they cannot "feel any pain".  However, some Wardens administering the injection admit that this first part of the injection series is more for the spectators than for the inmate.  It paralyzes the victim so they cannot make any expressions or movements and has little or no affect ont he ability of the person to feel.  The second part of the injection is the part that kills you - it slows and eventually stops your heart.  However, if the inmate is feeling any pain during this part of the execution there is no way for him/her to communicate this since they've been paralyzed.  This is where I think it crosses the line.  If something, anything, should go wrong in the injection series there is absolutely no way for the inmate to communicate something is wrong.

On another note, I used to be very pro-death penalty.  I'm still sort of for the death penalty, but upon reading the book "Death of Innocents" by Helen Prejean I believe that the way we do things needs to seriously be revamped.  If you want a good look at the death penalty system in America, this is the book to read.

As this is a debate section, any and all opinions are welcome - so long as you back them up with logic
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945
they dont feel anything... i dont see electricution or a bullet to the head much better.
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Colfax
PR Only
+70|6873|United States - Illinois
I ask you this then how do you put someone to death then? 
Also who cares if they feel pain the pain is jusified in the crime.

What about the person they killed, raped to death, or totured?  What about their pain?  They forfeit their right to life and us caring about anything when they did the crime.

And im pretty sure there is 3 drugs used.  One to put them to sleep, one to paralyze and one to stop the heart?

Had an ethics class on this topic read a couple books and did some research on the matter.  I have seen both sides and in my eyes once someone takes a life they forfeit their RIGHT to their own life.

______________

this is an opinion not an attack please don't -1

Last edited by Colfax (2006-06-27 14:03:09)

Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945

Colfax wrote:

I ask you this then how do you put someone to death then? 
Also who cares if they feel pain the pain is jusified in the crime.

What about the person they killed, raped to death, or totured?  What about their pain?  They forfeit their right to life and us caring about anything when they did the crime.

And im pretty sure there is 3 drugs used.  One to put them to sleep, one to paralyze and one to stop the heart?

Had an ethics class on this topic read a couple books and did some research on the matter.  I have seen both sides and in my eyes once someone takes a life they forfeit their RIGHT to their own life.

______________

this is an opinion not an attack please don't -1
yes those are the 3 drugs.

i am against death penalty since what if u caught the wrong person? look at other countries without the death penalty, their crime rate is lower... criminals still do things even if there are higher punishment, they think they wont get caught
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King_County_Downy
shitfaced
+2,791|6826|Seattle

However, if the inmate is feeling any pain during this part of the execution there is no way for him/her to communicate this since they've been paralyzed.  This is where I think it crosses the line.  If something, anything, should go wrong in the injection series there is absolutely no way for the inmate to communicate something is wrong.
You mean like "OMG, I'M DYING!!!" or "Hey, I'm not dying right!" or "I got an itch on my nose, can you get it for me?"

Are you serious? Your moral dilema is that it might hurt when you're dying? Lethal injection is the least painful, most humane way to kill someone. I think it should be outlawed simple because it doesn't scare and/or hurt ENOUGH. Fuck them and their feelings. These people aren't put on death row for stealing your bike, they've most likely killed at least 1 other person and I can gaurantee you, thay didn't do it painlessly to the victim. Suffering is the whole point of death row, both mentally and physicaly.
Sober enough to know what I'm doing, drunk enough to really enjoy doing it
uber73
Member
+188|6981|Brisbane
arent the powers that be, who deem death a reasonable punishment guilty of "playing God" in the same way that a killer would be?

who gives a state/government the right to say its fine to end a life?  did Jesus say, "hey guys, its fine by me, that guy was a bad lad... send him to the red chap with the horns.." ?  No.

"Thou shalt not kill"

Not, "thou shalt not kill, but its ok to kill a killer"


there is no justification for death, be it from murder, or as a punishment.
{M5}Sniper3
Typical white person.
+389|6989|San Antonio, Texas

Colfax wrote:

I ask you this then how do you put someone to death then? 
Also who cares if they feel pain the pain is justified in the crime.
Exactly, there isn't a "nice" way to kill someone. Their punishment is death for the crime they committed. I say we bring back the firing squad, it's cheap, quick, easy, efficient, and they won't feel a thing...

If your wondering if a lethal injection breaks the Constitution, you have to first ask yourself if it is cruel and unusual. I think the Justices (that made the 8th amendment) don't think that a lethal injection is cruel or unusual. I think they were going more on the lines on burning someone alive, burying someone alive, quartering someone, ect.
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6861|949

TehSeraphim wrote:

The 8th (I belive) Amendment to the Constitution of the United States forbids cruel and unusual punishment.  Currently in the US, a few states are debating about whether to get rid of lethal injection as a method of execution on these grounds.  Do you believe that lethal injection violates the Constitution?

Keep in mind we're not debating about the moral correctness of the death penalty, only whether or not lethal injection breaks the Constitution.
I think lethal injection does constitute cruel and unusual punishment as well.  And the system is definitely flawed, both procedurally and judiciously.

Sidestepping the moral question, I have a better way to kill some one as humanely as possible:

Put them in a concrete room, and simultaneously smash them from all sides with some sort of machine as fast as possible.  That way his whole body is pulverized in mere seconds.  Bingo, no pain!

That being said, I do not support the death penalty in any way shape or form, from a human rights perspective.  However, if someone murdered any one that I cared deeply about, I would find it extremely hard for me to forgive them and not want to inflict the same type of pain.
BornToKill67
It's a good day to die
+18|6889|Canada Eh?
Although I'm not American, I think that no it does not. Personally, if the person did something so horrible to be killed over, then they should suffer. Make them regret what ever the hell it is they did. I know it violates the constitution but hell screw that part (sorry if that offends anyone). Let's make an example. The BTK serial killer. Ffs people he killed i dunno how many innocent people. Scared the shit outa 'em and what he gets to go peacefully through lethal injection? Wth is this world comming to where people get to die peacefully after doing something so bad that they deserve to die? Personally if it were up to me they should cut off the guys legs and arms and leave him hanging from atop a skyscraper 'till he dies. Make him regret his actions.

But those are just my thoughts.
uber73
Member
+188|6981|Brisbane

Colfax wrote:

uber73 wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill"

Not, "thou shalt not kill, but its ok to kill a killer"
It also says in the bible something about an "eye for an eye"

Whose gonna carry those punishments out?  Raping or torturing someone to death....
im not overtly religious dude, but "eye for an eye" is old testament. ergo, not the teachings of Christ.
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6873|United States - Illinois
Lets put it like this then:

If someone killed lets say your wife or girlfriend could you honestly say that you wouldn't want them dead.  Lets say they tortured them slowly over a couple days while raping them in between then left them to lay in their own blood and feces untill their life drained from there body.

Sit there look at those pictures of your wife or g/f who was killed.   Then think about this their killer is getting 3 even meals, is safe, and warm.  Maybe watching some TV or reading a good book for the rest of their life.  If they dont get parole after 20 years or so. 

And yes it does happen.

Last edited by Colfax (2006-06-27 14:40:57)

=DBD=TITAN126
Member
+5|7012

Colfax wrote:

uber73 wrote:

"Thou shalt not kill"

Not, "thou shalt not kill, but its ok to kill a killer"
It also says in the bible something about an "eye for an eye"
No it's not. The only time it was used in the Bible, Jesus argued against it.

Matthew 5:38-42
"38 You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also; 40 and if any one would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well; 41 and if any one forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you."
Ty
Mass Media Casualty
+2,398|7003|Noizyland

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

they dont feel anything... i dont see electricution or a bullet to the head much better.
Correction: The first injection causes the victim to relax all their muscles. They may tence up instead, but what they lose is power of expression. This is to spare the onlookers from any trauma as the second injection is put it. This is the leathal one, and although the nerves have slowed down in their transmitting of pain signals to the victim's brain, the victim does indeed feel pain, it's just that it doesn't seem like that to onlookers.

The Electric Chair is the cruelest and must inhumane, with the most humane being either hanging, (although sometimes the victim's neck doesn't break and they are strangled to death,) or Guillotene, (one thing we have the french to thank for.)
I personally don't think money should be wasted, and a pistol-shot to the head would do the same job for meer cents. They're dead fast with no chance to feel any pain.

Since this has probably turned into a debate over the death penalty, my two cents is that it has irreversable effects on those wrongfully convicted.

Last edited by Tyferra (2006-06-27 14:54:15)

[Blinking eyes thing]
Steam: http://steamcommunity.com/id/tzyon
Roger Lesboules
Ah ben tabarnak!
+316|6806|Abitibi-Temiscamingue. Québec!
One easy way...no pain and make other criminal think twice...Bullet+head=BOOM headshot..


Sorry for those wich i may offend but...if your sick in the head enough to take a life...then you dont deserve to live yours...Kill and be killed...
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6873|United States - Illinois

Tyferra wrote:

cyborg_ninja-117 wrote:

they dont feel anything... i dont see electricution or a bullet to the head much better.
Correction: The first injection causes the victim to relax all their muscles. They may tence up instead, but what they lose is power of expression. This is to spare the onlookers from any trauma as the second injection is put it. This is the leathal one, and although the nerves have slowed down in their transmitting of pain signals to the victim's brain, the victim does indeed feel pain, it's just that it doesn't seem like that to onlookers.

The Electric Chair is the cruelest and must inhumane, with the most humane being either hanging, (although sometimes the victim's neck doesn't break and they are strangled to death,) or Guillotene, (one thing we have the french to thank for.)
I personally don't think money should be wasted, and a pistol-shot to the head would do the same job for meer cents. They're dead fast with no chance to feel any pain.

Since this has probably turned into a debate over the death penalty, my two cents is that it has irreversable effects on those wrongfully convicted.
Correction:

The drugs are administered, in this order:

Anesthetic - Sodium thiopental, which has the trademark name Pentothal, puts the inmate into a deep sleep. This drug is a barbiturate that induces general anesthesia when administered intravenously. It can reach effective clinical concentrations in the brain within 30 seconds, according to an Amnesty International report. For surgical operations, patients are given a dose of 100 to 150 milligrams over a period of 10 to 15 seconds. For executions, as many as 5 grams (5,000 mg) of Pentothal may be administered. This in itself is a lethal dose. It's believed by some that after this anesthetic is delivered, the inmate doesn't feel anything.

Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.

Paralyzing agent - Pancuronium bromide, also known as Pavulon, is a muscle relaxant that is given in a dose that stops breathing by paralyzing the diaphragm and lungs. Conventionally, this drug takes effect in one to three minutes after being injected. In many states, this drug is given in doses of up to 100 milligrams, a much higher dose than is used in surgical operations -- usually 40 to 100 micrograms per one kilogram of body weight. Other chemicals that can be used as a paralyzing agent include tubocurarine chloride and succinylcholine chloride.

Saline solution flushes the intravenous line.

Toxic agent (not used by all states) - Potassium chloride is given at a lethal dose in order to interrupt the electrical signaling essential to heart functions. This induces cardiac arrest.
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
The problem with lethal injection is that some people have gotten the order of drugs wrong, and ended up inflicting paralysis prior to the anesthetic, and some others have not flushed the syringe with saline between the drugs, causing crystallizing chemical reactions.  There's a really good write up of the various processes in the recent "The Week" magazine.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6919|Tampa Bay Florida
My question to those of you "Christians" out there is, if the inmate is going to hell anyway, why go to the trouble and the funding to put them to death... why not let them rot in their cell and ponder over why they did what they did, and get to miss out on life.  That's more of a punishment than an early death, in my opinion.

My dad does death penalty appeals for the state of Florida... he personally doesn't believe in it but there are lots of right wing Christians working with him, too....
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6901|Colorado
OK since the whole issue was brought up by a prisoner in the first place why do we care again? These inmates already have far more privileges than they should, how are they able to even retain a lawyer while convicted ?
My understanding is that they lost all of their rights except the most basic. WTF is up with them being able to read, work out, watch TV, smoke cigarettes, do drugs, drink ,have sex & bring up legal issues to a court?! sounds like a nursing home or some shit. If you have to do time then it should be nothing but time... it shouldn't be a place you hold as an option of coming back too if you can't handle it in the real world, or a place to learn to do even more crazy crap, or a place to become extremely muscle bound, it should be so bad that they are thinking, "Man if I get another chance I'm never ever coming back here!"
I for one am tired of paying for them & would perfer to let them rot like a mexican prison, I bet they dont have repeat offenders because they throw away the key.
BornToKill67
It's a good day to die
+18|6889|Canada Eh?

Spearhead wrote:

Why go to the trouble and the funding to put them to death... why not let them rot in their cell and ponder over why they did what they did, and get to miss out on life.  That's more of a punishment than an early death, in my opinion.
Because it costs money to support them and feed them. Why not just kill em and you wont be throwing away money? (Thats why I think they do it)
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6919|Tampa Bay Florida

BornToKill67 wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

Why go to the trouble and the funding to put them to death... why not let them rot in their cell and ponder over why they did what they did, and get to miss out on life.  That's more of a punishment than an early death, in my opinion.
Because it costs money to support them and feed them. Why not just kill em and you wont be throwing away money? (Thats why I think they do it)
Well, it's more of a moral issue.  If you start executing them because they're taking up space, then you'll end up executing others, too, who may not deserve death.  And executing prisoners because they're taking up space and funds is pretty damn barbaric, in my opinion. 

It's kind of similar to the Abortion issue...

My point is, most of the modern world has given up the death penalty, and there haven't been explosions of guns and murders coming from those countries.  IMO, the death penalty is overused, outgrown, and our society doesn't need it anymore.  It hasn't stopped criminals from murdering, because most murdering is either instant anger, and they're not thinking about the long, long term consequences (10 years is a long time away), or they're just psychopaths to begin with, so they can't really care whatever happens to them.
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6873|United States - Illinois
Wrongful guilty verdicts are something of the past people.  with DNA evidence and the CSI crap we have these days it doesn't happen.  Most cases of people being released are from years ago when the technology wasn't in existence. 

Open and shut cases where by there is DNA, video, or multiple witnesses in the instance of murder should walk out the court room and go straight into the stretcher and stuck with the needle. How can you argue that.  They are 100% guilty and should be put to death right away.  That way there is no extra money going into appeals and prison time.

Instances where the drugs are administer incorrectly there should be severe punishments.  That way it doesn't happen.  Or they should automate the system so there is no human error.  Robots can build cars why cant they kill people.  If you take human error out of the equation its is infallible.

Last edited by Colfax (2006-06-28 05:34:20)

daffytag
cheese-it!
+104|6804
IMO i think the death peanalty is too extreme. Its bad that people commit crimes, but taking their life makes you a killer as well....
.... I thought I was going somwhere with this.

Screw it im off to play BF2
S3v3N
lolwut?
+685|6747|Montucky

uber73 wrote:

arent the powers that be, who deem death a reasonable punishment guilty of "playing God" in the same way that a killer would be?

who gives a state/government the right to say its fine to end a life?  did Jesus say, "hey guys, its fine by me, that guy was a bad lad... send him to the red chap with the horns.." ?  No.

"Thou shalt not kill"

Not, "thou shalt not kill, but its ok to kill a killer"


there is no justification for death, be it from murder, or as a punishment.
(if this has been posted before i apologize since this pissed me off)

What about War? is it murder or self defense?

I served 4 years in the United States Marine Corps, now i'm not going to admit to what i've done, or where i've been because its none of anybodies business.

so am i going to "hell" because my government said hey you and your unit are going here and you will do this.
Colfax
PR Only
+70|6873|United States - Illinois
I think God needs to be left out of this discussion.  Simple as that.  I'm no bible scholar but I'm sure killing someone in war is not violating that commandment.
aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7021

TehSeraphim wrote:

I saw someone bring up lethal injections in another topic, and I thought I would make a debate question about it.

For debates sake, let's relegate this solely to the United States.

The 8th (I belive) Amendment to the Constitution of the United States forbids cruel and unusual punishment.  Currently in the US, a few states are debating about whether to get rid of lethal injection as a method of execution on these grounds.  Do you believe that lethal injection violates the Constitution?

Keep in mind we're not debating about the moral correctness of the death penalty, only whether or not lethal injection breaks the Constitution.
Okay, seems a fair discussion

TehSeraphim wrote:

--My opinion is that yes, lethal injection does indeed break the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the Constitution.  I base this on the fact that there is a lot that goes up to an execution that a lot of people are not aware of.  Prior to being executed, an inmate is put onto death row and given a date of execution.  At no point in time is this date solid - many inmates are actually led into the building where they're going to be executed and given their final meal/time with their family, only to have their execution pushed back due to the pardons system, etc.  Imagine being led into the building you're going to be executed in and then being told "oh, just kidding, you're going to have to wait a while longer".
This is part of the legal process, not related specifically to the method of execution.  This may happen whether the person is to die by lethal injection, guillotine, electrocution, drowning or whatever.  So, in the interests of the discussion, I shall ignore it.

TehSeraphim wrote:

However, for the most part I believe it's cruel and unusual because of the injection itself.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are two things injected into a prisoner that kills them.  The first drug that is injected paralyzes the inmate, so that they cannot "feel any pain".  However, some Wardens administering the injection admit that this first part of the injection series is more for the spectators than for the inmate.  It paralyzes the victim so they cannot make any expressions or movements and has little or no affect ont he ability of the person to feel.  The second part of the injection is the part that kills you - it slows and eventually stops your heart.  However, if the inmate is feeling any pain during this part of the execution there is no way for him/her to communicate this since they've been paralyzed.  This is where I think it crosses the line.  If something, anything, should go wrong in the injection series there is absolutely no way for the inmate to communicate something is wrong.
What could possibly go wrong?  The inmate is paralyzed, put to sleep and their heart stopped.  Ultimately, you're seeking to end a criminal's life so as long as the third part works, the job is done.

However, if you feel this method is cruel/unusual, what method of execution would you prefer?  Drowning, being buried alive, guillotine (didn't always work on the first stroke), electrocution, firing squad, hanging, being burnt at the stake, being fed to the lions?

Ultimately, I think this method of execution is probably the least cruel.

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