As many people have said..what? 50 times before (gross estimation), humanity is a creature that is doomed to be greedy and self destructive basically, we'll never have a utopia, heck, we won't even have a united government like in all those Sci-Fi movies -_-;, oh well, back to RL.
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Poll
Does communism have a point? Is it a valid POV?
| Ja, comrade | 63% | 63% - 70 | ||||
| I'd rather have a queen and a pining prince | 24% | 24% - 27 | ||||
| Wait, who is Marx again? | 11% | 11% - 13 | ||||
| Total: 110 | ||||||
Well that's really the point of the debate, isn't it? This isn't RL and it's sometimes interesting to conceptualize about how RL might be different. As for socialism never taking hold on a large scale, it certainly could and has. United Soviet Socialist Republic was one lesser known example of this. Sad, but we all seem to be agreeing for the most part. No one seems to be posing a strong position against the concept of Communism, nor does anyone seem to think it could actually work. I'll have to do a better job of being devil's advocate.
any type of communism, socialism, fascism is a ridiculous crutch for the lazy segments of society that think their problems are everyone's responsibility, I haven't busted my ass for the past 12 years getting blown up, burnt, flash frozen (propane boils at negative 44 degrees Fahrenheit) to get a very nice job, pay, benefits just so the whopper flopper down the street can enjoy the same for doing nothing, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how (in the case of socialized medicine) it's ok for my ass busting to pay for crack-ho Keisha's 7th trip to the abortion clinic or her welfare check for her and her 5 kids who's father(s) she can't name just because she can't keep her legs shut or get a job other than "entertaining" for drugs
OK, we're not even STARTING the debate on socialized medicine here. Actually, I was trying to stay away from socialism altogether. Socialized medicine is an entirely other topic of debate, and one with which I share your opinion. However, should true communism exist, Keisha wouldn't because everyone is a contributing member of society - that's the lynchpin of it - and why it could never exist in our present day society. The underlying concept of Communism is everyone does something that has to be done because it needs to be done for society to function. Ever bought a whopper? Did you appreciate the fact that it was cooked and served to you? If not a whopper per se, you at least hopefully understand the point I'm making. No, that particular service being gone is not necessarily a life altering void, but there certainly are services (trash collection, janitorial, plumber) that are relatively key elements that many people aren't so keen to do.kr@cker wrote:
any type of communism, socialism, fascism is a ridiculous crutch for the lazy segments of society that think their problems are everyone's responsibility, I haven't busted my ass for the past 12 years getting blown up, burnt, flash frozen (propane boils at negative 44 degrees Fahrenheit) to get a very nice job, pay, benefits just so the whopper flopper down the street can enjoy the same for doing nothing, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how (in the case of socialized medicine) it's ok for my ass busting to pay for crack-ho Keisha's 7th trip to the abortion clinic or her welfare check for her and her 5 kids who's father(s) she can't name just because she can't keep her legs shut or get a job other than "entertaining" for drugs
The concepts are sound, but just like all the other governments sooner or later its corrupted. Corporate America is corrupt and so is China as was the USSR.
Exactly works perfect in theory but it can never be implemented in real life. Too hard to organize and people would never agree on a society like that because there are always some people who want more than others.Cougar wrote:
Great idea in theory, doomed to fail in the real world. There are no utopia's and it is not possible to create one. Welcome to reality Karl.
Thank You! ...... oh you meant the other one...Cougar wrote:
Great idea in theory, doomed to fail in the real world. There are no utopia's and it is not possible to create one. Welcome to reality Karl.
Last edited by -=CB=-krazykarl (2006-06-20 11:59:06)
Like everyone else has said, in theory it's a great idea. Problem now is that everyone is so sensitized to what they have been brainwashed to believe that everyone has a 'right' to whatever they want, that no social structure can be implemented, next to a Facist regime, to dictate it.
Too bad, however, because a capitalist society is a short term, short sighted benefit for those who can get ahead, but in the long run, the selfishness will run this planet dry and uninhabitable. The communism we seek is a global effort of teamwork in order to allow us as a human race to continue on living. Unless if this is the best we can get out of humanity, perhaps we dont deserve to continue to exist.
Too bad, however, because a capitalist society is a short term, short sighted benefit for those who can get ahead, but in the long run, the selfishness will run this planet dry and uninhabitable. The communism we seek is a global effort of teamwork in order to allow us as a human race to continue on living. Unless if this is the best we can get out of humanity, perhaps we dont deserve to continue to exist.
Everything in moderation. Capitalism as it is being excercised here in the US? I totally agree. Actually, I would say the world. All you have to do is offer even a cursory glance at our dependance on oil as a global society. There is no excuse for it. Those who can do something won't, those who would do something aren't in a position to do so. Only when the wells are dry will the folley be evident.Havazn wrote:
Too bad, however, because a capitalist society is a short term, short sighted benefit for those who can get ahead, but in the long run, the selfishness will run this planet dry and uninhabitable.
Getting back to the point though, anything taken to the extreme is too much. There is nothing wrong with a free market society, but we don't really excercise that as good ideas are prevented from surfacing from alternative sources by the existing sources and political powers already in place. What's that? Congress voted to give themself another raise? Wow, I'll be damned. Communism would present a similar issue with good ideas not coming to light ultimately as the buearocracy would likely buffer any new idea posed to the People. For any society in any flavor of government to best succeed, there needs to be a clear and dedicated path for new ideas to surface. I see no system of government which provides that.
It has a point, but could never work in the society we live in. Human nature prevents it from working.
Last edited by joemah (2006-06-20 12:14:04)
if capitalism is such a short sighted, short term plan then why is it at it's basest level behind any economy that has flourished throughout history, if you wanted to be the highest priced and best selling seamstress on the streets of ancient rome ( i know it was a military-expansionist society and not entirely capitalist but you know what I'm getting at), then you provided a better product, if your work is crap you don't get paid..simple. Survival of the fittest, economic evolution, earned rewards, dammit if you want a piece of my pie you gotta earn it. Marxism, socialism, communism, fascism, they're all different breeds of the same critter. The whopper flopper gets paid on a level according to the skill and education invested as do I, I fail at my job entire cities go cold, including the whopper griddles, they fail at their job and a burnt patty ends up in the trash, they earn minimum wage, I earn.....well....more. In communism there is no incentive, why should I try hard if I'm just going to reap the same as the high school drop-out? Hell the only time a communist or socialist society has ever contributed to the advancement of human culture it was because it was forced to COMPETE against a capitalist society (like in the cold war space race), competition itself a basic principle of capitalism. Capitalism is the laws of evolution applied to economics, the sick weak and old get picked off the pack allowing the strong to breed and multiply, communism is the antithesis of this action, allowing those who have nothing to offer to restrain the advancement of the pack.
I should rephrase. "Today's capitalist society is is a short term, short sighted benefit"kr@cker wrote:
In communism there is no incentive, why should I try hard if I'm just going to reap the same as the high school drop-out? Hell the only time a communist or socialist society has ever contributed to the advancement of human culture it was because it was forced to COMPETE against a capitalist society (like in the cold war space race), competition itself a basic principle of capitalism. Capitalism is the laws of evolution applied to economics, the sick weak and old get picked off the pack allowing the strong to breed and multiply, communism is the antithesis of this action, allowing those who have nothing to offer to restrain the advancement of the pack.
The communism we speak of isn't the same as the ones that have been applied throughout history. It is merely the idea of helping your fellow man. More a socialism ideal than a facist one.
I agree that the whopper flipper shouldn't be paid the same an engineer, however, I feel that he should have the same opportunities the engineer had to get to that point. As much as a capitalistic society may say "everyone has the opportunity" it just isn't so. There are poor public education systems, tuition on post secondary schools is greatly expensive and there isn't enough social aid to the children of the Keisha's out there. Forget how she got there, should her children grow up to the same existence? Where is their opportunity?
Survival of the fittest is fine for animals, but wouldn't you like to think man is more than just beasts? That our consciousness allows us to be more than animals? Think about how many great minds are out there that could have cured cancer, taken us to the stars or brought so much to us but were never given the opportunity to do so.
That is my communism.
communism and fascism are at opposite ends of the idealogical spectrum
I find it funny that Marx never actually wrote about how a "true" communist state would work. Ive read Das Capital and the Manifesto and it never goes into any detail about how the government would function. Him and Engels just came up with a fantastic concept (IMO) and left it to the likes of Lenin and Mao to put into practice, I think there's some bitter irony there.
Cheers.
PS: I quote Orwell so im also a disillusioned Commie!
Cheers.
PS: I quote Orwell so im also a disillusioned Commie!
Last edited by Jepeto87 (2006-06-20 17:52:09)
90% of posters agree that Strawman Communism can never work. LOL...
including the originator, I was just hoping for some interesting conversation. And I've got that. Thanks allspastic bullet wrote:
90% of posters agree that Strawman Communism can never work. LOL...
As for Lenin and Mao putting it into practice - they didn't. The only incarnation of Communism has been in name only to hint at some Utpoia on the other side of oppression with no intent of ever ending the oppression. A great idea was used as an opiate for the masses so to speak. Quite effective really, and brilliantly executed over all.
No it wouldn't work... It never works.... Sounds too good to be true
I think I agree with you, in that sense. I just was amazed 90% of the posters seemed to take their views right out of a cold war playbook. When I see that many people in free countries agreeing on the basis of shared spurious definitions, I marvel at the effectiveness of our own brilliantly executed opiates...puckmercury wrote:
including the originator, I was just hoping for some interesting conversation. And I've got that. Thanks allspastic bullet wrote:
90% of posters agree that Strawman Communism can never work. LOL...
As for Lenin and Mao putting it into practice - they didn't. The only incarnation of Communism has been in name only to hint at some Utpoia on the other side of oppression with no intent of ever ending the oppression. A great idea was used as an opiate for the masses so to speak. Quite effective really, and brilliantly executed over all.
Plus I was just bitter nobody responded to my earlier post about Marx and Adam Smith having views quite different from the way their respective "babies" are perceived nowadays...
Capitalizm is probably the best for our world becuase it causes us to compete with eachother and advance in technology and other things much more quickly then if we were in the communism that was thought of by marx, but because it is impossible to do it in this world with the way humans are iI voted no.
I never said they put it into practice, I said they were given the opportunity to do so. But instead they simply tarnished its name and killed millions of people.puckmercury wrote:
As for Lenin and Mao putting it into practice - they didn't. The only incarnation of Communism has been in name only to hint at some Utpoia on the other side of oppression with no intent of ever ending the oppression. A great idea was used as an opiate for the masses so to speak. Quite effective really, and brilliantly executed over all.
My mistake. As for Capitalism, I'm not sure the US is a good example of true Capitalism anymore. Just as we've never been an example of a true Democracy, we've always been a Republic - not that that is any big news.
Communism is like making the world largest ball of uranium. "Hey, let's make the world lagest ball of uranium..... hmm, the ball exploded and millions died. Let's try ist agein! (Because, the world lagest ball of uranium did never exist, and the explosion, which kill all the pepole, has nothig to do with that)."puckmercury wrote:
Communism hasn't failed because it has never existed.
I'm not sure I get what you're getting at here, sorry ...Knochenmann_AUT wrote:
Communism is like making the world largest ball of uranium. "Hey, let's make the world lagest ball of uranium..... hmm, the ball exploded and millions died. Let's try ist agein! (Because, the world lagest ball of uranium did never exist, and the explosion, which kill all the pepole, has nothig to do with that)."puckmercury wrote:
Communism hasn't failed because it has never existed.
if their minds are so great, they would thrive in such an environment, man-beast-plant, same rules will always apply, it's our job to learn how to use the rules to our advantage, this can greatly improve the public school system, which currently follows a socialist ideal in that everyone in community X pays into the public education pot, whether they use the schools, send their kids to private school, or don't even have kids, because it is supposed to be beneficial to the communityHavazn wrote:
I should rephrase. "Today's capitalist society is is a short term, short sighted benefit"kr@cker wrote:
In communism there is no incentive, why should I try hard if I'm just going to reap the same as the high school drop-out? Hell the only time a communist or socialist society has ever contributed to the advancement of human culture it was because it was forced to COMPETE against a capitalist society (like in the cold war space race), competition itself a basic principle of capitalism. Capitalism is the laws of evolution applied to economics, the sick weak and old get picked off the pack allowing the strong to breed and multiply, communism is the antithesis of this action, allowing those who have nothing to offer to restrain the advancement of the pack.
The communism we speak of isn't the same as the ones that have been applied throughout history. It is merely the idea of helping your fellow man. More a socialism ideal than a facist one.
I agree that the whopper flipper shouldn't be paid the same an engineer, however, I feel that he should have the same opportunities the engineer had to get to that point. As much as a capitalistic society may say "everyone has the opportunity" it just isn't so. There are poor public education systems, tuition on post secondary schools is greatly expensive and there isn't enough social aid to the children of the Keisha's out there. Forget how she got there, should her children grow up to the same existence? Where is their opportunity?
Survival of the fittest is fine for animals, but wouldn't you like to think man is more than just beasts? That our consciousness allows us to be more than animals? Think about how many great minds are out there that could have cured cancer, taken us to the stars or brought so much to us but were never given the opportunity to do so.
That is my communism.
where it fails is that, just like other aspects of communism, there is no incentive for the public school do provide a superior product, thanks to the teachers unions- bad teachers are nearly impossible to fire, teachers get paid according to how long they've been doing it as opposed to how well they teach, schools are paid per student overall, but the number of students is dependent upon where the districts are set
solution= capitalism ---privatize the school system
bad teachers= unemployed teachers
school still gets paid according to student population, but is allowed to recruit from any district, this results in the school attempting to provide a superior product, what parent wouldn't want their child to go to a superior school?
this will also directly result in more efficient use of taxpayer money, another beautiful attribute of capitalism is that there is a universal rule that every dollar wasted is one from which there is no profit nor opportunity for re-investment
Has anyone wondered if something like a 1984 (also by george orwell, i believe) is communistic? Or just a rigorous beaurocracy (sp.) that maintains a utopian state by stripping everyone of their rights?
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