Being Dragged into two World Wars that we didn't start is a pretty good reason to be Proactive in the world.Ikarti wrote:
Pearl Harbor has nothing to do with world policing.M1-Lightning wrote:
Actually, we are world police. It's been our foreign policy since December 7th 1941. And with the extreme measure of our global trade, it will always be that way.Ikarti wrote:
As bad as it is, it's not our business. If they wanted him out of power, they could have revolted. We are not world police.
I know they could never take over. We would never let that happen thats why were acting now not later. And yes I know your history and I do hope England gives back the north. like they should.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm not sure if your aware of Irish history but we do have a long history of fighting our oppressors of yesteryear - the UK. we fought for 800 years and achieved victory on 80% of our land. The rest will come in time. We've laid down our arms right now - have we run away from our problems? No. We are now dealing with the issue through politics, diplomacy and tackling the root causes of the problem. That might be a 'pansy' way to go about it but we have had relative peace for nearly a decade now. If the time came to take up arms against the UK in a proper one-on-one war, which is, let's face it, not going to happen, I would do my duty for my freedom.yuck7777 wrote:
Yes, Spain did have there 9/11, But the diffrence is that the US isn't going to run away from our problems. We take action to eliminate it. We love are freedom and no one will take that away from us. Were not going to let Islamic extremist take over. I'm sure if Ireland was attacked you guys wouldn't want to give into them right?? Wouldn't you want to fight them? I don't know if you would, You seem to bash everything the US stands for or does. I bet you would say let the US take care of it!!!!CameronPoe wrote:
I think you'll find Spain had their own version of '9/11' at the hands of islamic extremists. The USA doesn't have a monopoly on 'being the victim'.
You must understand - I don't criticise the decision the US took to go into Afghanistan. That needed to be done. IMO, Iraq however was not and has actually served to multiply terrorism (as the UK did when they carried out the Bloody Sunday killings in Northern Ireland).
Also, you are worried muslim extermists are gonna take over the USA? Both you and I know that is never going to happen, military action or not. Proper homeland security will take care of that.
this thread has official been hijacked!
oh well was worth a try.
oh well was worth a try.
Yes it does. It was the motivating factor in building military bases in Japan and Germany to ensure that it didn't happen again. We had an isolationist foreign policy beforehand. But after WWII we started a foriegn policy under fear that we would get blindsided like that again. We entered a cold war with the USSR for fear they would initiate a nuclear war. The USSR had never attacked us before so there was no solid reason to believe they would. It simply turned into paranoia. Thus our long lasting policy of being the strongest military and attacking first. None of the countries that we've invaded since WWII have attacked us first. It's been a preventative foreign policy since.Ikarti wrote:
Pearl Harbor has nothing to do with world policing.M1-Lightning wrote:
Actually, we are world police. It's been our foreign policy since December 7th 1941. And with the extreme measure of our global trade, it will always be that way.Ikarti wrote:
As bad as it is, it's not our business. If they wanted him out of power, they could have revolted. We are not world police.
I'm not going to try to defend US foreign policy...this is beyond my control.
I'm not going to debate should we/shouldn't we be in Iraq...strong opinions are unlikely to be changed.
There is a logically inconsistency with criticizing "US foreign policy" for the current war if you are a citizen of a nation that supported the war - troops, supplies, airspace, etc.
So if you fall into this category: did US foreign policy send your nation's troops to Iraq?
I just want to make sure you are as persistently critical of your own country's foreign policy as well. I'm not a big fan of the "Well, I only stole $100...that guy stole $10,000" argument.
I'm not going to debate should we/shouldn't we be in Iraq...strong opinions are unlikely to be changed.
There is a logically inconsistency with criticizing "US foreign policy" for the current war if you are a citizen of a nation that supported the war - troops, supplies, airspace, etc.
So if you fall into this category: did US foreign policy send your nation's troops to Iraq?
I just want to make sure you are as persistently critical of your own country's foreign policy as well. I'm not a big fan of the "Well, I only stole $100...that guy stole $10,000" argument.
What are you 12? You don't fall for that shit? I guess you probably think the US gov. did 9/11. And no I don't fear them if I did I wouldn't want to go after them now would I! Oh, that right you don't think we should go after them.Ikarti wrote:
See, you're just an ignorant fearmongerer. I don't fall for that shit.yuck7777 wrote:
Ya, OK lets just let them blow stuff up over here. Maybe they'll get to you or your family. But who cares?? We shouldn't do anything..We might kill someone.Ikarti wrote:
America, FUCK YEAH!
I'm glad you believe that killing shit solves everything. Go learn something.
You need to learn something, But that wouldn't happen until something happened to you!!!
Last edited by yuck7777 (2006-06-14 07:28:36)
Yeah. I basically disagree with the tactic being used to 'prevent' terrorism - I don't think it is. But you have your opinion I have mine - it's a divide that can't be bridged. CHeers for the support on the north - watch you don't get negged by the brits!!!yuck7777 wrote:
I know they could never take over. We would never let that happen thats why were acting now not later. And yes I know your history and I do hope England gives back the north. like they should.CameronPoe wrote:
I'm not sure if your aware of Irish history but we do have a long history of fighting our oppressors of yesteryear - the UK. we fought for 800 years and achieved victory on 80% of our land. The rest will come in time. We've laid down our arms right now - have we run away from our problems? No. We are now dealing with the issue through politics, diplomacy and tackling the root causes of the problem. That might be a 'pansy' way to go about it but we have had relative peace for nearly a decade now. If the time came to take up arms against the UK in a proper one-on-one war, which is, let's face it, not going to happen, I would do my duty for my freedom.yuck7777 wrote:
Yes, Spain did have there 9/11, But the diffrence is that the US isn't going to run away from our problems. We take action to eliminate it. We love are freedom and no one will take that away from us. Were not going to let Islamic extremist take over. I'm sure if Ireland was attacked you guys wouldn't want to give into them right?? Wouldn't you want to fight them? I don't know if you would, You seem to bash everything the US stands for or does. I bet you would say let the US take care of it!!!!
You must understand - I don't criticise the decision the US took to go into Afghanistan. That needed to be done. IMO, Iraq however was not and has actually served to multiply terrorism (as the UK did when they carried out the Bloody Sunday killings in Northern Ireland).
Also, you are worried muslim extermists are gonna take over the USA? Both you and I know that is never going to happen, military action or not. Proper homeland security will take care of that.
Ill second that JG1567JG, Look, you guys can hate America all you want. And leave it to Bubbalo to believe that The U.S. Army is a tool of oppresion. All I can say is despite what you guys think about my land, if you guys ever get attacked and devastated, I can promise the U.S. will be there for you if we are needed. That seems to be alot of misleading information that we left people without a government and blasee blasee. We aint leaving Iraq until they are stable enough to have a government and are able to take care of themselves, and we would do the same for any one of you that absolutely needed it. If you dont need our help, which I am sure that you wont always need it. We will let you roll. The whole thing is Bubb, you cant expect a democracy or any government for that matter to be brought up from dust over night, takes time money and lots of work. And one way or another the U.S. and its allies are going to do their best to make it happen. And as far as whats concerned? You? Look mac, I dunno what those schools have put in your head. I dunno if they teach you that America is the enemy and completely ignore all the good we have done. Which yeah I have been told by some Italians that they are taught that America isnt necessarily bad, but some of the things they do are done unwanted. I can understand that. However I been told that alot of teachers completely ignore the fact that we stood up to the Third Reich when Hitler's military devastated Europe with his power. We werent doing it because of greed, we were doing it because yeah, he was an economic genius, and he was taking over Europe. We did it because he would not have stopped his Genocide for anyone. And he wouldnt have stopped with Europe. We came to the aid of Europe because he ended up being maniacal, and he needed to be ousted. With alot of sacrifice on our part, and a huge sacrifice from Europe, we got him out and HELPED return Europe to normal. We didnt do it all because a large part came from the people there. Like Iraq, we cant do all the work, we need the people to help us do it. So bubb, are we really that oppressing? I swear sometimes you want to make the U.S. to be Communists. I dont know what you have against the U.S. but you really got to let it go man. Along with some of the people in these forums, I cant control what the government here does, I am sure alot of the people that post here cant, hell I work for the government. So why dont you explain why the bug in your ass makes you against the U.S.?
Does the US have a foreign policy?
Does the self proclaimed title of "the worlds policeman" give em the right to bully whoever they don't like?
Does anyone really care about Africa?
Does the self proclaimed title of "the worlds policeman" give em the right to bully whoever they don't like?
Does anyone really care about Africa?
You guys prove the extreme stupidity and narrow mindedness that is going on in the world. Dumb fucks. Stop being so racist. These forums make me sick with all the complete idiots. If you dont want to kill Bush or you shoot a gun at a rabbit you are automaticly wrong. And also dumbass I would bet that most people in America could be compared to people in your country if you think 60,000,000 people are rednecks. Do everyone a favor and go jump off the bridge or take you head out of your ass before you think.Cold Fussion wrote:
And all the pro george bush people.delta4bravo*nl* wrote:
I'm so sick and tired of all those USA treads.........
Looks to me like the us cant take any criticism, and they sure do not learn from there mistakes.
The usa a beautifull country, with some nice people if you do not count in the 60.000.000 rednecks.
Ummmmm.... wasn't the genocide happening long before the US joined the war? Would the US have joined if Pearl Harbour wasn't bombed by Japan?d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:
crap .......... lots more crap ............. I been told that alot of teachers completely ignore the fact that we stood up to the Third Reich when Hitler's military devastated Europe with his power. We werent doing it because of greed, we were doing it because yeah, he was an economic genius, and he was taking over Europe. We did it because he would not have stopped his Genocide for anyone. ...... crap, more crap .....
And don't do the knee jerk reaction - US policy was "it ain't in our backyard" so don't try tell me what you think the current policy is - cause I don't think even GB has a clue what it is today.
Unless oil is involved.
well the us was involved with a large amount of AID to African countries. and still is, just to a lesser extent nowdays.
i grew up in the late 80's and early 90s and watched the news alot. we helped them plenty. its to far gone for anything now
and people who think iraq had nothing to do with terrorism...go read please.
im no bush supporter. but anyone who thinks some jolly green democrat who might get in the seat next is going to fix all our problems. is a fool. the problems that the US has runs far deeper then the bush "legacy"
i grew up in the late 80's and early 90s and watched the news alot. we helped them plenty. its to far gone for anything now
and people who think iraq had nothing to do with terrorism...go read please.
im no bush supporter. but anyone who thinks some jolly green democrat who might get in the seat next is going to fix all our problems. is a fool. the problems that the US has runs far deeper then the bush "legacy"
Last edited by beerface702 (2006-06-14 07:43:20)
The Holocaust didn't begin until the fall of 1941.nev wrote:
Ummmmm.... wasn't the genocide happening long before the US joined the war? Would the US have joined if Pearl Harbour wasn't bombed by Japan?d3v1ldr1v3r13 wrote:
crap .......... lots more crap ............. I been told that alot of teachers completely ignore the fact that we stood up to the Third Reich when Hitler's military devastated Europe with his power. We werent doing it because of greed, we were doing it because yeah, he was an economic genius, and he was taking over Europe. We did it because he would not have stopped his Genocide for anyone. ...... crap, more crap .....
And don't do the knee jerk reaction - US policy was "it ain't in our backyard" so don't try tell me what you think the current policy is - cause I don't think even GB has a clue what it is today.
Unless oil is involved.
book mark for later comments by me.
I was actually a little worried the OP didn't mention Belgium.CameronPoe wrote:
I personally deplore the acts of the British, Belgian and French empires - the only ones I have read much on - just because I criticise the US and don't bang on about these empires doesn't mean I think they're saints by any means.
The only reason Africa is in such a bad state is because we left...
I lived in Botswana (just north of South Africa) and I'm sorry but those guys can't organise a piss up in a brewery! The idea of government, infrastructure and policing are alien to these people and is not something they can organise themselves. One could argue we shouldn't have gone in and tried to force such things on these people in the first place but unfortunately we did and that won't change. Now they have to live to these standards without the Europeans in control it's all falling apart.
I think the reason people bash america so much is they are making the same mistakes, and for the same reasons, as previous empires did. This seems odd when you're talking about a first world country.
I lived in Botswana (just north of South Africa) and I'm sorry but those guys can't organise a piss up in a brewery! The idea of government, infrastructure and policing are alien to these people and is not something they can organise themselves. One could argue we shouldn't have gone in and tried to force such things on these people in the first place but unfortunately we did and that won't change. Now they have to live to these standards without the Europeans in control it's all falling apart.
I think the reason people bash america so much is they are making the same mistakes, and for the same reasons, as previous empires did. This seems odd when you're talking about a first world country.
Last edited by RicardoBlanco (2006-06-14 09:01:18)
And most of them were killed by their own people, the terrorists with bombs...Ikarti wrote:
3,000 Americans pales in comparison to 40,000 Iraqi civilians in my book, especially since Iraqis had nothing to do with it.G3|Genius wrote:
I am an American.
I vote.
I pray.
I love, in this order: my God, my family, my country. and all three are extremely important to me.
We all come from different backgrounds. I see Dutch, Australian, American, and South African in this thread alone. We all have a different perspective.
Living in the shadow of the World Trade Center (40 miles away), I knew close to half a dozen people who perished when those hateful people flew our planes into our buildings. When they fell, I could see without the Television the smoke in the sky from the window of my dorm room at Seton Hall University.
My classmates cried. My professors cried. My parents cried. I cried, too. You cannot understand how genuinely scary that day was.
People say "we will never forget 9/11." Some have, and some have not. I have not forgotten. You who have not lost thousands of people in one day because of these terrorists do not have the same perspective that many of us americans have. I understand that you do not understand. But why be so intolerant? You did not lose loved ones. You stand on the outside, criticizing.
Say a prayer. Don't just ejaculate hate as you do now, because it upsets people who care.
WTC was bad an all, but people need to move on.
Agreed, especially since the Democratic Governor of, what, Oklahoma(?) just signed a bill outlawing violent video games. The Democrats will do nothing except continue to take away our rights. Now that's enough about the democrats and their party...and don't get me started on Hilary. (Unless it's Hilary Swank).beerface702 wrote:
well the us was involved with a large amount of AID to African countries. and still is, just to a lesser extent nowdays.
i grew up in the late 80's and early 90s and watched the news alot. we helped them plenty. its to far gone for anything now
and people who think iraq had nothing to do with terrorism...go read please.
im no bush supporter. but anyone who thinks some jolly green democrat who might get in the seat next is going to fix all our problems. is a fool. the problems that the US has runs far deeper then the bush "legacy"
What everyone forgets is that France and the rest of the European countries were totally behind the U.S. in Iraq in the beginning, until the development and reconstruction contracts were given to the U.S. Then they all started whining and bitching and began their "hating" of the U.S.
Just her last name makes me want to defile her...HM1{N} wrote:
...and don't get me started on Hilary. (Unless it's Hilary Swank).
That is simply not true. The sad reason behind why the likes of France and Russia did not back the war was because they were top-dog in Iraq as regards influence and contracts. They would never have backed something that would be financially detrimental to themselves. Other European countries who did not go to war did so because they saw it as illegal under international law, given that a second resolution authorising war never even made it to the table, never mind being voted on as well as the fact that the benefits of going to war in Iraq were unclear at best.HM1{N} wrote:
What everyone forgets is that France and the rest of the European countries were totally behind the U.S. in Iraq in the beginning, until the development and reconstruction contracts were given to the U.S. Then they all started whining and bitching and began their "hating" of the U.S.
I would love it if the European governments backed off from Iraq because the citizens of Europe disagreed with the war and the legality/necessity for it, but sadly it boiled down to moneyin certain cases. However, in some instances politicians would have been committing electoral suicide if they were to have their country back war in Iraq - that's another reason the majority of Europe didn't join in.
Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-14 10:05:30)
In every situation where a weak country is attacked and subjugated by another it isn't by the people of the country or the country itself (I'd sure be impressed if the British Isles had stood up in the middle of the North Sea and came over to kick Africa's ass back then). It is, and always will be the actions of a small group of rich and powerful men who are able to convince the weak minded to follow thier ideals.
To blame the people that are left because those that committed these crimes are gone or untouchable is silly. You should target their supporters yes, but don't lump in everyone just because they live in the same place. In the same way as not all Americans support Bush, it can safely be said that not all Europeans went out of their way to destroy Africa.
To blame the people that are left because those that committed these crimes are gone or untouchable is silly. You should target their supporters yes, but don't lump in everyone just because they live in the same place. In the same way as not all Americans support Bush, it can safely be said that not all Europeans went out of their way to destroy Africa.
Bollocks. Children should no more be allowed to play extremely violent games than they should be allowed to watch hardcore pornography. I challenge you to explain how violent games are outlawed by the bill, but don't reply here, put it in the thread on the subject: http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=29589HM1{N} wrote:
Agreed, especially since the Democratic Governor of, what, Oklahoma(?) just signed a bill outlawing violent video games. The Democrats will do nothing except continue to take away our rights.
Bollocks. If anything it was because France already had oil contracts with Saddam which the U.S. destroyed by invading. http://www.pinr.com/report.php?ac=view_ … guage_id=1 . I might have even believed you for a moment if you had any sources which say France and the rest of of the European nations were totally behind the U.S. and changed position because of the award of post-war contracts.HM1{N} wrote:
What everyone forgets is that France and the rest of the European countries were totally behind the U.S. in Iraq in the beginning, until the development and reconstruction contracts were given to the U.S. Then they all started whining and bitching and began their "hating" of the U.S.
I see CameronPoe got there before me.
___________
On the topic of this thread I strongly believe that European nations are very much responsible for many of the problems Africa faces. Saying it's a long time ago or it is the fault of the African people themselves (like Mr Blanco) is wrong. As an example just look the origins of the division of people into Hutu and Tutsi and you will see that such groupings have often been purposefully injected into populations in what was essentially a divide and conquer technique. Africa was not uncivilised before the Europeans arrived contrary to what Mr Blanco might think.
____________
If a country build it's economy by committing crimes, then it should repay the victims of the crime with that economy once this 'small group of rich and powerful men' has been exposed for what they are. Just like any economic wealth which is transferred away from Iraq by the illegal invasion should be repaid to the Iraqi people once the 'small group of rich and powerful men' who violated international law to boost their companies profits have been fully exposed in the public eye.chuckle_hound wrote:
To blame the people that are left because those that committed these crimes are gone or untouchable is silly. You should target their supporters yes, but don't lump in everyone just because they live in the same place. In the same way as not all Americans support Bush, it can safely be said that not all Europeans went out of their way to destroy Africa.
You must realize that these days its near impossible to create a thread in here without it turning into a U.S. vs whoever bashes it fight.Snakestyles wrote:
this thread has official been hijacked!
oh well was worth a try.
Anyways, thanks for trying. Nice to find some justification for why it's not Americas problem to fix Africa.
Wonder why it's not getting fixed?Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:
You must realize that these days its near impossible to create a thread in here without it turning into a U.S. vs whoever bashes it fight.Snakestyles wrote:
this thread has official been hijacked!
oh well was worth a try.
Anyways, thanks for trying. Nice to find some justification for why it's not Americas problem to fix Africa.