yerded
Bertinator
+255|6890|Westminster, California
Folks, this IS a little long but should be required reading. Please respond with an explaination of why you disaggree, if you do. Snappy one liners are not really debate,  just bait for hate.

COMMON SENSE



THIRD ANNIVERSARY WASHINGTON, D.C. -- It began in the middle of the night, like so many other battles I’ve experienced. Here in the United States, it was still March 19 -- but along the Iraq-Kuwait border, it was already the 20th. My hastily scribbled notes for that night, scrawled in my reporter’s notebook using night-vision goggles, recorded what my video camera was capturing: “Aircrew Final Briefing ... fully-loaded Royal Marines waiting for liftoff ... heavy artillery fires to northeast of LZ,” and the fateful, “Dash Two down in fireball. No survivors.”

Inadvertently, my camera’s night lens caught the event on videotape -- the horrible image of the first 12 allied deaths in OIF -- Operation Iraqi Freedom. Four U.S. Marine airmen and eight Royal Marine Commandos perished instantly -- just minutes after the war started -- when their CH-46 helicopter crashed en route to the Faw peninsula. For several hours afterward, I incorrectly believed that Griff Jenkins, my FOX News field producer and cameraman, had also been killed on the doomed bird.

Twenty days -- and more than 100 “news feeds” later -- Jenkins and I would cover the 5th Marines’ final assault on Saddam’s Palace, perched beside the Tigris in downtown Baghdad. The euphoria of the Iraqi people as they tore down the giant statue of the deposed dictator in Firdos Square was unmistakable. So, too, was the exhilaration of U.S. troops -- for the capture of the dictator’s capital allowed us to remove the hot and heavy chemical-biological protective suits we had worn nonstop since the start of the conflict. Then, seemingly within hours, nearly all of the “embedded” journalists disappeared.

The mainstream media -- which had forecast “thousands” of U.S. casualties and predicted that it would “take months” to capture Baghdad -- apparently didn’t need to see any more. Thus, Jenkins and I were the only broadcast coverage team accompanying the 3rd Battalion, 66th Armor of the 4th Infantry Division as it advanced through Samarra and Tikrit to start reconstruction in that sector of Iraq. Since then, U.S. media outlets have increasingly depended on local “freelance” stringers for videotape and written reports on the war.

Understandably, these “local” journalists are not invited to accompany U.S. military units on actions like “Operation Swarmer,” conducted this week in and around Samarra by the 101st Airborne Division. Nor do the “locals” cover the local clinic, school, electrical grid and water purification system repairs being made by U.S. Navy Seabees, Army Engineers and Marine civil-affairs units. In short, about the only thing making its way into American homes is the bad news from the war.

That all wars have plenty of bad news is indisputable. War is ugly, nasty, bloody. Terrible things happen in war. Those who fight in war have horrific things happen to them. Anyone who has ever really been to a war can verify those descriptions. Yet, they can -- if asked -- also tell of extraordinary courage, remarkable acts of self-sacrifice, merciful compassion and epic examples of perseverance. Three years ago today, those of us who were fortunate enough to be embedded with U.S. and British forces as they crossed into Iraq had countless examples of these virtues. Some of them were even reported -- but not any more.

In the three years since coalition forces charged into Saddam’s despotic fiefdom, it has become the norm to report stories of misfeasance, malfeasance and incompetence, rather than the good that American troops have done. An errant bomb warrants more ink and airtime than the well that was dug or the child who was rescued by a U.S. medic and nursed back to health. This is not simply a perception of imbalance -- it is reality in Iraq.

Since U.S. troops entered Iraq three years ago this week, the Iraqi people have held three nationwide elections, written and ratified a constitution and formed their first imperfect but democratically elected government. Yet, compare the number of Google or Lexis-Nexis entries for “Iraqi Elections” with the entries for “Abu Ghraib,” and it is amply evident what American editors and publishers consider important news.

It should not, therefore, be a surprise on this third anniversary of OIF’s “D-Day” that American public opinion on the war -- whether it is winnable and how it is being managed -- has fallen through the floor. Opponents of the commander in chief are pointing with glee at his sinking poll numbers. His “friends” are running for cover.

To his credit, President Bush is once again taking his argument on why winning in Iraq is of vital importance to the American people. Hopefully he will continue to do so -- reminding both allies and adversaries alike that he has always said that this would be a long, hard fight.

And because this is indeed going to be a protracted struggle -- not unlike the long-drawn-out “cold” war against communism -- it is important that those who are doing the fighting be given greater recognition. Between now and the “Fourth Anniversary” of OIF, the administration must make a concerted effort to let the American people see the bravest of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Guardsmen and Marines who are fighting this war. They are called heroes. We’re going to need more of them.
From Col. North in SOF mag

Last edited by yerded (2006-05-29 10:41:20)

=JoD=Corithus
Member
+30|6811
Damn right, over the last three years I've had to search harder and harder for any decent reporting comming out of Iraq.  It's as if the media would have us believe that American and coalition troops are nothing but violent, blood thristy, incompetent savages, which, besides being blatantly false, is a huge disservice to those service men and women.  Excellent job locating this.
skratch-x
Member
+25|6890|NY, USA
The toppling of the Sadam statue was staged propaganda.

http://newstandardnews.net/content/index.cfm/items/641

July 3, 2004 – An internal Army study of the war in Iraq has confirmed that the infamous toppling of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Firdos Square in central Baghdad on April 9, 2003 was stage-managed by American troops and not a spontaneous reaction by Iraqis. According to the study, a Marine colonel first decided to topple the statue, and an Army psychological operations unit turned the event into a propaganda moment.

At one point during the stunt Marines draped the statue of Saddam Hussein with an American flag. When the crowd reacted negatively to that gesture, the US flag was replaced with a pre-1990 Iraqi flag, missing the words "God is Great," by a sergeant from the psychological operations unit. The Marines brought in cheering Iraqi children in order to make the scene appear authentic, the study said.

Allegations that the event was staged were made in April of last year, mostly by opponents of the war, but were ignored or ridiculed by the US government and most visible media outlets.

Last edited by skratch-x (2006-05-29 11:50:12)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7090
What we are doing in In Iraq is installing a Democracy.

Successfully they voted they had a Higher Election turn out than we did last election.

In a land where only Tribal Male Elders Ruled, now women have the Vote.
What will that do to their System? " Soccer Moms anyone ? "
What would this Forum sound like if Every other voice was Female,
Would we hear F*Ck You Blow them to the Stone Age in every third post still ?

The WMDs were allegedly identified by many Nations
and Both thee Democrats and Republicans in the USA

Both parties Spoke of them and there alleged existence often

Bush Gore clinton Everyone.
israel routinely Ran Air Strikes into Bagdad, Iraq in the 80s for this Very reason.
Does israel usually have Bad intel ? or are they I pirate Rouge Nation? I think not.
We also must come to the conclusion that Actual verification of there existence
could be a Large crater in any or maybe a Few Cities on ANY continent, European or North American 
If anyone gets their hands on the Right material a Bomb can be produced capable of Vast devastation.
It certainly appears We have reduced The terrorist capacity to bring War to our shores.
Some people will tell you they are waiting for nicer weather.
Some people will tell you they are Waiting for another weak Waffling Masturbater to take power in the USA.
You can decide which is the more reliable but they haven't returned in 6 years.
Now they are fighting professional, volunteer soldiers in their own backyards.
They went from an Army against army,  to guriella war, to suicide bombers, to leave a bomb on the side of the road and half the time kill their own people

Why do they fight at all? If they "The Iraqi people " really reject Democracy and American values, All the insurgents have to do is stand down, make a Lull in the Fighting so us Easily confused and mislead Americans will think we won with our False sense of  superiority.
When we leave, the country would be their's because the people support them. right?

They know when they leave they will never get it back again. If it wasn't their Strong hold and their Training ground ( we all remember the Air Liners set up on their military bases for Hijacker 101 Classes ) why do they fight over it ?

You must also realize that as Terrorist go, Iraq was a better recruitment area. They are more westernized. Can you imaging your Average Afghani trying to blend into the Crowd at an Airport. It is no mistake and no secret that our adversaries like to use people from the most westernized Arabic countries.

You will also notice that Iraq is Centrally located. We have reduced the Communication infrastructure to near 17th century. They must now send a Runner if they want their Communications to be secure. They can use Phones, Cells, Codes on the Internet, but this is truly our Domain. Their people that can use these technologies with the Know how to By pas us Will not Fall for the "72 virgins" line.
They must Send a runner. Will he desire a taste of the 25 million reward instead of an Explosive vest and $500 For his mom? maybe.
So they must Send a Trusted Runner Should he go thru Iraq? Will they Trust him to go through Iraq?
They are losing Iraq and they know it. So they struggle. Their attempts are pitifully and desperate.
They will never get it back again.   
Are these people not worth the same effort the allies put into WWII against a better equiped, more motivated, devoted, clever and driven enemy, Who also resorted to guriella tatics in the End ?
If you dont believe they are worth it and northern Europeans were, perhaps you are a Racist ?
Wait 4 years and see what the history looks like. Till then its all talk.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-05-29 12:33:01)

unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7025|PNW

Horseman 77 wrote:

What would this Forum sound like if Every other voice was Female,
Would we hear F*Ck You Blow them to the Stone Age in every third post still ?
Probably. You obviously don't realize how militant many women are.
yerded
Bertinator
+255|6890|Westminster, California
Horseman wrote  "What we are doing in In Iraq is installing a Democracy." etc. etc.

Another kick ass post horsey.

Last edited by yerded (2006-05-29 13:32:06)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809
All I know is that a bloke at work named Nezzar (from UAE) has extended family (1st cousins, etc.) living in Baghdad and he gets first hand commentary on life there. And apparently it is an unremittingly grim nightmare. Intermittent water and electricity, fear of crowded places, sporadic gunfire, daily bombs, stuff that goes unreported. It doesn't sound too pleasant. He and his extended family ardently oppose the occupation of Iraq. I value his opinion over and above any news article I read.

The men who went to fight I'm sure meant well but they need to get out and let their country be free. The US have made Iraq a magnet for crackpot Islamist militants from all over the middle east. They've fucked it up for the forseeable future.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-05-29 13:38:37)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7090

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Horseman 77 wrote:

What would this Forum sound like if Every other voice was Female,
Would we hear F*Ck You Blow them to the Stone Age in every third post still ?
Probably. You obviously don't realize how militant many women are.
I would say " put it to a poll " and you would probably lose even though there are about 2 women who post in BF2S and about three who play WAR games like BF2. Must be because they are all so militant that they dont even Play War games.


Do you really think woman are as militant as men? You do realize that Gen. MacArthur Gave Japanese Women the right to vote for this very reason. He had some experience in War.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7090

yerded wrote:

Horseman wrote  "What we are doing in In Iraq is installing a Democracy." etc. etc.

Another kick ass post horsey.
Is this an agument ? Actually it is a done deal. Its also in Far better shape than Germany or Japan was after WWII. Like I said give it 4 years or so. Germany took 8 and Japan took longer than that. The last japanese Soldier gave up in 1974 so some sense of history is needed. Be sure to bring yours to the debate.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-05-29 13:49:45)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7090

skratch-x wrote:

The toppling of the Sadam statue was staged propaganda.
Who's Idea was it to have the Old man take off his sandal and beat Saddam's statues face with it?
that was a nice touch.


The pedestal it sat on was a column of concrete 16 feet in diameter and they had beaten about 1/4 of the way trough it with sledge hammers and brute force when the US Amour recovery vehicle showed up with a cable and winch.

They must have forked over some heavy cash to make some one that motivated to try and cut down a concrete column with a sledge hammer. The money we spend, Shees !
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7021
Its going great over there. Big ups to the USA

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … le5365.htm
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

BN wrote:

Its going great over there. Big ups to the USA

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … le5365.htm
Now that's the kind of clip that made me post 'Are Americans, by and large, extremely unintelligent?'!!
Fucking unbelievable. I know that, hopefully, most Americans are decent human beings and slightly more intelligent than that inbred fuckhead.
Jepeto87
Member
+38|6938|Dublin
Ohh low blow!
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6815
Where did the article come from?
The_Mob_Returns
Member
+72|6975|Indianapolis, IN
Now at the time when those Americans were shooting, in said movie, did they know whether he was a friendly or not?  Were they going to take time and ask him if he was a friendly because he could have been an enemy?  Terrorists do not were signs that say they are terrorists they just fit in with everyone else.  And from what I read from a book (Shooter: The Autobiography of Marine Sniper) the people in the military do not think of the enemy as a person but as an object.  If you make the enemy a person you will not be able to kill them. 

And this is a portion of the military and not all of it.  You cant judge a military based upon a few soldiers.

(and another random thought probably not related, was this staged also?)
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|7021

Bubbalo wrote:

Where did the article come from?
have u looked at it??

CNN
Crypto_420
Member
+25|7096|Portland
I believe this was the US's plan the hole time.  As soon as cliton took over; Bush senior still had a vission,  controlling the oil.  By placing a government over iraq,  we have 1st say over oil.  Sure its not perfict yet, but every war takes time.  We will have total control, and provide protection at these oil fields, and refinerys, but at a price.  This price.....cheap oil.   So far the cheap oil isn't cheap.  A 55 gallon oil barrel closed alittle over $70 today...   This may seem high but this over priced product will soon drop.  Hopefully there will not be another year before this happens, but im not holding my breath over it.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

The_Mob_Returns wrote:

Now at the time when those Americans were shooting, in said movie, did they know whether he was a friendly or not?  Were they going to take time and ask him if he was a friendly because he could have been an enemy?  Terrorists do not were signs that say they are terrorists they just fit in with everyone else.  And from what I read from a book (Shooter: The Autobiography of Marine Sniper) the people in the military do not think of the enemy as a person but as an object.  If you make the enemy a person you will not be able to kill them. 

And this is a portion of the military and not all of it.  You cant judge a military based upon a few soldiers.

(and another random thought probably not related, was this staged also?)
I agree with you in that it looks a little staged to try and disparage the US military.
yerded
Bertinator
+255|6890|Westminster, California
Looks like we still haven't made any progree in Iraq...oh wait. Zarqawi. Nevermind.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6803|Southeastern USA

BN wrote:

Its going great over there. Big ups to the USA

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … le5365.htm
Wonder what was cut out in that big jump?

How quickly we forget the practice of playing dead to set off a suicide bomb when approached.....

Basic rules of engagement when dealing with that is
They shoot at me=I shoot them til they get dead....alot...
Maybe Sean Penn should create a Film Actors Guild certification squad, attach one F.A.G. to each unit, let one of them approach the combatant and ask him if he's ready to get treated or wants to kill some more.

What do you think, George?
https://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8175/georgebushfinger8fn7ge.gif


edit:yes i own Team America, I'm assuming most of you know about it and am not trying to take credit for F.A.G.

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-06-08 17:58:43)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6897

kr@cker wrote:

BN wrote:

Its going great over there. Big ups to the USA

http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf … le5365.htm
Wonder what was cut out in that big jump?

How quickly we forget the practice of playing dead to set off a suicide bomb when approached.....

Basic rules of engagement when dealing with that is
They shoot at me=I shoot them til they get dead....alot...
Maybe Sean Penn should create a Film Actors Guild certification squad, attach one F.A.G. to each unit, let one of them approach the combatant and ask him if he's ready to get treated or wants to kill some more.

What do you think, George?
http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/8175 … 8fn7ge.gif
all they did there was double tap. not the nicest thing to do but not illegal

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