Sarum
The Angry Geek
+11|7076
Blind obedience in a Democracy is no better than forced obedience under a totalitarian regime. The only way we can get governments to tell us the truth is questioning their every action. Even if you agree with it. If they're lying, eventually they'll trip themselves up.

As citizens of democracies, our governments are set up to represent, and enact our wishes. They largely do – the electoral cycle is too short for them ever to not have to worry too much about public opinion. Sure they spin and twist and lie to make what they want to do look more like what we want them to do, but largely they’re conforming to the majority opinion – or at least the opinions of those who put them in power (in the cases where this isn’t necessarily as simple as the majority).

It therefore follows that it is our duty and responsibility to have an informed opinion on pretty much everything. We as a collective, by proxy, make the policy decisions of our nations, and it’s therefore up to us to understand fully the issues at hand. If we do, then there is far less room for the people in power to do stupid things, to lie to us, and generally screw things us.

These things aren’t hard – after all, the idiots we have as politicians can understand them – they just like us to think they’re complex. “Ah, but you’ve got to look at the bigger picture”, “there were other considerations” and similar phrases without any further explanation are simply devises to try teach us we’re incapable of understanding the workings of national and international decision making. Not so!

Take an interest in the world around you, think about it, and keep your government honest!
crusaderop50
Member
+1|7069
i love this country, i believe that this country would remain an example to the world as generation pass by.  we must show a stong capability in places where those hated us.  for this war, there are many scandel that can hurt us ( prisoner abuse) the only way to wash away our sin is to win the war and regain respect.  lets not repeat 'nam.  ( i believe hibbies cause us to lose.)
SpanktorTheGreat
Bringer of slight pain and mild discomfort.
+1|7043
Those damn "hibbies"!
Sarum
The Angry Geek
+11|7076
Can you wash away your sins with the blood of innocents?

I'm sorry, but thats a crazy comment. By all means attempt to win the war, I think it's too late to back down now anyway. Don't fool yourself any kind of sin is washed away by killing people. That is something you have to do entirely seperately.
BladeRunner
Member
+5|6978|UK
IMHO America is just like any other country on this small Earth. It has it's Tyrants, the corrupt, the evil, the ignorant, and the oppressive...and at the same time it has artists, it's great thinkers, humanitarians, people who are open and honest, people who will say 'hi' to a stranger, people who will give up what they have to help someone with nothing.

It just seems that the people in the first group are the ones they have in power. Thankfully the people in the second group are it's citizens.

Hope I haven't caused any offense there.

Last edited by BladeRunner (2005-11-05 06:49:04)

v1l2u5
Member
+1|7007
I think we bleed red just like everyone else on this planet! Could it be we all came from the same family?
samstar81
Straddle my Member
+0|6988|The Netherlands
Yes, 1 big family, plagued by feuds.
BladeRunner
Member
+5|6978|UK
Saddly, yes. It all seems to come down to this human desire to label things 'them' and 'us'.

eg.
In the World.... UK [us] USA [them]
In the UK...England [us] Scotland [them]
In England... Northern [us] Southern [them]
In the North Cheshire [us] Lancashire [them]
In Cheshire....

etc etc etc

We divide and divide ourselves until we stand alone. Now if only we could make our minds work the OTHER way 'round.
tonypotsnpans
Member
+0|6998

mikeshw wrote:

I am curious about this. How do you folks see yourselves and your country as on the worldstage? I m interested in the responses from the Americans on this section of the forums. I will post my comment after reading a few, if there's any who care to respond.

edit: this post is sensitive, so its not intended to be negative in any manner. just so that you all know, i have a lot of American friends.

edit no2: this is NOT about the Iraq War, and whether it is justified.
As people linked to their past, with the recognized foundation of our liberties given to us by our creator. Americans have cleaved to this knowledge. With moral integrity we have strove to keep in our homes and communities, to have those that represent us to imbue these same qualities. When we reach these high standards as we often do, we promote the estate of ourselves and the world. As Americans who continue after our traditions of the duty to do what is in the best interest of another even at our own personnel legitimate expense, we cant help but be a continued  drink of cool water for a dry land.
TrevorP
Member
+0|7022
Im Canadian so I get a lot of american news stations and I gotta say that you very rarely are told about a lot of international things. For example how many americans know that The US government has held an illegal tax on canadian softwood lumber for a while now and even after a NAFTA rulling said they had to pay compensation Bush just says hes not going to.

In my mind you DO think you are the kings of the world. Ok your a super power but your not the only power, and Im not denying that sadam was a bad man or anyhting but that was no reason to invade a country, have the UN deal with it (which the US government also seems to ignore).

I do have relatives that are americans and I know for a fact that not all americans are like there idiot president. But I do know that about well 50% are...as thats the percent that voted for him.
tonypotsnpans
Member
+0|6998
Not having the facts of a matter before the WTO I can't comment. Your correct we are not the sole sovereign of the world that is why almost 40 other nations went with us into Iraq, along with a majority of support in the U.N. With after 12yrs of negative results for the disclosure of WMD that Saddam's Iraq acknowledged it had. With the light now shed on a few UN council members in regard to the Oil for Food Program it seems they had  disingenuous ulterior motives for negative support of Iraq disarmament. The U.N. is in need of reform for its failure to keep scandal and abuse out of its organization. Its typical that those who disagree with our Presidents leadership denigrate to base attacks on him personally for lack of a cogent argument to demonstrate legitimate disagreement. Canada has been our friend and ally, and if serious threat was toward either nation I believe each would be prepared to defend one another.
mikeshw
Radioactive Glo
+130|7067|A Small Isle in the Tropics

TrevorP wrote:

I do have relatives that are americans and I know for a fact that not all americans are like there idiot president. But I do know that about well 50% are...as thats the percent that voted for him.
None of the Americans I work with, or count as friends support Mr Bush. That 50% must be the biggest minority ever.

tonypotsnpans wrote:

As people linked to their past, with the recognized foundation of our liberties given to us by our creator. Americans have cleaved to this knowledge. With moral integrity we have strove to keep in our homes and communities, to have those that represent us to imbue these same qualities. When we reach these high standards as we often do, we promote the estate of ourselves and the world. As Americans who continue after our traditions of the duty to do what is in the best interest of another even at our own personnel legitimate expense, we cant help but be a continued  drink of cool water for a dry land.
For some of us in this part of the world, we don't truly care about Mr Bush (or Mr Clinton's smoking "cigar", pun intended) until it affects us and our way of lives (either we get pissed, or we say, Yeah, go USA we are behind you). America is still the land of plenty, land of opportunities. America represents Freedom. America paid for this with blood ever since.

tony, that is an incredible summary.

Last edited by mikeshw (2005-11-05 15:27:41)

THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|6999|AUS, Canberra
im not sure about other countries but here in aus there is a definant feeling that americans dont really know or care much about whats going on outside there country...i have an american working for me and he is not like that at all and im sure most people on here are not either, its just when we see shows like the tonight show and the j-walking segment when he interveiws people on the street.......scary really to think that people can have such little knowlage of whats going on outside there country.


ill just add that i think half the reason for this is the news.....
we seem to get our local half hr news followed by international news wich is basically usa dominated, but i imagin the usa networks have so much going on there that they spend little time dribbling about the rest of the world..

Last edited by the_heart_attack (2005-11-05 15:53:56)

BladeRunner
Member
+5|6978|UK

tonypotsnpans wrote:

Canada has been our friend and ally, and if serious threat was toward either nation I believe each would be prepared to defend one another.
An' if anyone picks on Canada England will be there to deal out some ass whoopin' with them.

Funny, if you look at some of the major turning points in WWII (from the British point of view), like capturing the Enigma code and many other covert ops, the team always seams to consisted 4 Brits and 1 Canadian.

I swear...that Canadian crops up everywhere where something 'special' is being done.

I wonder if it was the same guy? Some uber Canadian who was BORN 2 PWN

Capturing Enigma - How HMS PETARD Seized the German Naval Codes ...for a 'BRIEF' description. Does omit a few details (possibly de-classified at a later time)


...and another thing, one thing I DO appreciate about the relationship between the UK and USA, is the way during times of peace and calm we 'take the mick' out of each other, we may occasionally badmouth each other, but when the brown stuff hits the fan things change. A unity emerges.
The UK has a very similar relationship with alot of countries. In peace there is a friendly rivalry, but in war they are stern allies.

Last edited by BladeRunner (2005-11-05 17:22:22)

jax
Member
+12|6996
hi im live in NZ. (lord of the rings) and i have to say i think that a hell of alot of american population turn a blind eye to anything that dosent really concern them. another thing that really changed my mind mind about the americans is why the hell would u reilect george bush. he is a munt. why the hell are u guys still in iraq. wats his new excuse. the whole WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION thing was pretty crap. not meaning to insult any1. only 50% voted for bush. sorry bout the whole rant but i  just thought u might like to no wat somone from another country felt like about america
chickenmuncher
Member
+2|6980| U.S.A.
Hey, being a 14 year boy growing up in Southern California, I had to add something to these comments. Although 14, and many think I am still very..."absent" to that of the state of our nation. Frankly, I am far from that, I always check-in with the news, know which prop to vote on (even though not old enough), and keep conflicts in other countries in many of the debates I have with teachers in 8th grade.

  Many of you are probably thinking I'm this "young little boy that should just not get in the way." Well, as someone posted earlier, "don't make anyexcuses for the war like, weapons of mass destruction". The whole reason we entered Iraq was because their tyrant was gasing villages, shooting people at random, and most sickening of all, feeding captive people into a tree cutter. (all true and forgot in the past years.)

  Many people are mistaken to think all of us are "war-driven" people, the fact of the matter is, we don't what hundreds of people a day getting killed for reasons that could have been more reasonably handled.

  I also understand the fact that though America probably has the most enemies of any country...ever... we still stand strong and help as many people has we can. Even if that means war.

  Another conflict I wanted to adress is some people thing many Americans live in royalty, well live in Southern California, Orange County no less. Unlike the T.V. show The O.C. many of the people here live in huge milti-million dallor homes and party all night. I live in a 2.7 million home, but that doesn't change the fact over 40% of Orange County live in poverty and even I have friends whuch are poor.
 
  People over estimate how wonderful life here is, my dad, ya sure he pulls in a 6 digit number a year, but half of it goes to people who can't have food for their entire family. On street corners here there can groups of 30 mexican illegal immigrants looking for work. Their are 40+  kids in classes in my school (law says 25-1 ratio)

  I just wanted to give a few of the many things I see about my country, and me, being more active in the community and politicly active (having debates with adults twice and three times my age) then anyone I have ever meet my age.

**If you would like to give a person comment to this post or have a question, send me a private message or e-mail me at [email protected]
v1l2u5
Member
+1|7007
BTW kids, 6 believe everything the press tells ya or take it with a grain of salt. News/TV stations are ran by motive and political preference.
Supermatt
Member
+1|6978|FL
My POV from living here: most Americans nowadays (mostly the teenage/20'sish crowd) have lost just about all values and morals that were standard and common a few decades ago and before then. Everybody tries to live for the moment, doing whatever they need to be 'happy' for the time-being. Nobody really appreciates the little simple things anymore it seems, like having dinner with your family every day at the table, saying grace before eating, etc. That's the way it looks to me, and I'm only 21. It makes me appreciate other nations a lot more and makes me curious about if this problem only persists here, or if it's a world-wide thing, or maybe the US *used* to be in it's prime, or what's all going on.
BladeRunner
Member
+5|6978|UK

chickenmuncher wrote:

Many of you are probably thinking I'm this "young little boy that should just not get in the way."
No way, dude. If more 14 year olds in the world actually took an interest in politics like you do, we probably would have far less corrupt tyrants and their secret little gangs rulling countries and taking liberties with our liberties.

A survey in England last year showed a SHOCKINGLY high percentage of 16 year olds can't name the Prime Minister. Nice.
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7002

jax wrote:

hi im live in NZ. (lord of the rings) and i have to say i think that a hell of alot of american population turn a blind eye to anything that dosent really concern them. another thing that really changed my mind mind about the americans is why the hell would u reilect george bush. he is a munt. why the hell are u guys still in iraq. wats his new excuse. the whole WEAPONS OF MASS DISTRUCTION thing was pretty crap. not meaning to insult any1. only 50% voted for bush. sorry bout the whole rant but i  just thought u might like to no wat somone from another country felt like about america
There's a lot more to American politics than just Foreign issues, I know I personally disagree with the overall foreign policy of President Bush, but I want his ideology locked in to the Supreme court for a lot of domestic issues. 

We are still in Iraq because they still need help, simple as that.  When they can stand firmly on their own, they will, and we will be there to help them until they are ready.  And incase you weren't aware, there were a lot of countries other than the US that agreed that Iraq had stockpiles of WMD, so don't try to claim that it was "pretty crap", it was the right decision at the time
redfoxster
Chopper Whore Extraordinaire
+3|7002

Supermatt wrote:

My POV from living here: most Americans nowadays (mostly the teenage/20'sish crowd) have lost just about all values and morals that were standard and common a few decades ago and before then. Everybody tries to live for the moment, doing whatever they need to be 'happy' for the time-being. Nobody really appreciates the little simple things anymore it seems, like having dinner with your family every day at the table, saying grace before eating, etc. That's the way it looks to me, and I'm only 21. It makes me appreciate other nations a lot more and makes me curious about if this problem only persists here, or if it's a world-wide thing, or maybe the US *used* to be in it's prime, or what's all going on.
Agreed, im 22 and in college right now.  Of the hundereds of people I know, there is exactly 1 other one that takes an interest in politics.  It's really sad, the problem is apathy, not ideology.
General_Anabolic
Member
+0|6998|Washington, USA

the_heart_attack wrote:

im not sure about other countries but here in aus there is a definant feeling that americans dont really know or care much about whats going on outside there country...i have an american working for me and he is not like that at all and im sure most people on here are not either, its just when we see shows like the tonight show and the j-walking segment when he interveiws people on the street.......scary really to think that people can have such little knowlage of whats going on outside there country.


ill just add that i think half the reason for this is the news.....
we seem to get our local half hr news followed by international news wich is basically usa dominated, but i imagin the usa networks have so much going on there that they spend little time dribbling about the rest of the world..
If your opinion of America is based on television shows then you would be quite mistaken.  "Jaywalking" only shows the biggest morons they interviewed all day for a laugh.  90% of the people I know are quite intelligent.  For those of you that have never been to America, I suggest you visit someday and get to know a few people, I think you will be more then surprised in a good way. 

Yeah most of our news is US centered, but this is a big country with lots that goes on.  There is still many international news broadcast and channels with information about outside the US.  How much outside news do you get that isn't US centered?  America is the center of the world so naturally we are going to get the most attention.  Do I care about what goes on outside the US, of course, but I care about my home and my people more.  I think that would be the same for any country.
Scorpion0x17
can detect anyone's visible post count...
+691|6995|Cambridge (UK)

BladeRunner wrote:

In England... Northern [us] Southern [them]
Everyone always forgets the Midlanders! In my book it's :

In England... Midlands [us] everyone else [them]

Last edited by Scorpion0x17 (2005-11-06 15:17:27)

KtotheIMMY
Member
+513|6992
How Do Americans Perceive Themselves on the World Stage?

I don't like "American" politics or how we rationalize the way our country should conduct itself in foreign affairs. Many Americans are oblivious to anything that happens in this world that is either a) outside of our borders, or b) doesn't effect our military.

Personally, I try not to watch the news, read newspapers, or get involved in anything politically controversial. It's my way of coping with something which I a) don't like, and b) can't easily change.

Perhaps my reaction comes from my confusing background.

I was not born in this country. I was adopted by an Irish-American couple. I became a naturalized citizen in order to join the U.S. Army. I was screwed over by the military system. I am from a liberal community in California (for the record I've never tried marijuana).

I currently live in a town which supports an active Army post of 43,890. The largest Army installation in the U.S. (Fort Hood only has 42,391). All of my friends are in the military on active duty and are on constant rotations between here, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Korea.

For me, this is a very depressing place to live. In this city people who don't conform to the typical "BUSH-hell yeah!" mold are automatically branded anti-American or a hippie traitor, or laughably, a communist. If you aren't with us, you must be against us. That is the rationale. Of course...

Most of the Army families here are concerned (and understandably so) for the well being of their servicemembers so they're looking for strength by believing that our country is always doing good--and could never do anything wrong.

We all have our ways of coping with the times. My friends cope with the help of a wonderful friend: Beer
drmalikia
Member
+0|7043
Wow these posts are great. LOL  I actually couldn't stop laughing reading all of these.  American blah blah blah blah this and American blah blah blah that.  Those long 1 and 2 page posts could have been summed up in a paragraph.

My Perspective: a young citizen that has served in the military, educated (education is in the eye of the beholder), and loves listening to long winded foreigners (just because I am one myself).


America is like any other country in the world.  We have our fair share of problems just like the guy next door or the guy across the world.  We have corrupt politicians, bad agendas, poor decision-making, etc. but so does your country and every other country out there.  Just as we all have our good aspects as well.

Most of these "How I see America" posts are no different then how we see your countries.  I truly think your basis for argument on your personal "Insight" into America & Americans is pathetic.  So you mean to tell me that other countries don't have large corporations dictating various aspects of life through media, agendas, laws, lobbying, blah blah blah.  It’s the same around the world no matter where you go yet the Americans are the root of all evil.

Do you think we like playing world police with our military?  Do you think we like always being the "Leader" in all world matters?  We can't help it because it’s the role we play in the world right now.  Its frustrating to hear all of these negative comments about American this and America that, look at your own countries for a change and see the faults you have right their at home.  No one in this thread can say anything otherwise about America, I know my country is screwed up but yours are just as bad.  America gets tired of playing “Leader” all the time but until some other country steps up and takes on the current role we have, I don’t see it changing anytime soon.

My military mindset talking:

We will always be invincible and will always feel invincible.  No matter how hard you beat us down, slap us around, torture us, blow up our buildings, kill our families, we will never give up our way of life. 

Robin Williams said it the best:

Robin Williams on Making Sense!

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one plan for peace. " Books, not Bombs" won't work. The head mullahs won't let anyone read them. If they do, they poke their eyes out.
Here's the plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past & present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them 'good old boys'. We will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides' most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

9b) Use the buildings as replacement for the twin towers.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan.

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'" - Robin Williams.

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