BF2S Forums Israel and Palestine

Biden is probably the only reason it came up. They're grasping at straws to find something disagreeable. Unfortunately, the opportunity seized there came in the form of diminishing violence against Christians. One started to go on about US atrocities as a whataboutism, but then seemed to remember that Trump (the king of tact apparently) didn't want us talking about that sort of thing anymore. What a pickle!

Yes, what about our own violent expansion and exploitation of human life? Let's talk about that as well sometime.

Turkey's a big boy. If Germany can own up to its closeted skeletons, so can they and maybe be a better entity for it.

Certainly. Suffering in and after wars not even 100 years old, impactful through subsequent generations, are very open to jokes and memes, minimization and general mockery online.

None of the American wars, in spite of impact on society, were ever a serious history topic during my time in public schools outside of JROTC. I can't imagine much has changed.

uziq wrote:

also my family are norman too. unlikely someone can claim the right to my fair and pleasaunte gloucestershire lands.

OK so you accept you're not a druid and have no right to be living on what is historically druid land.

You should pack your bags and start walking, if you're lucky maybe your Norman neighbours ie the French will give you and your kind refuge.

The aboriginals were living like that before white people arrived, Australia is working to undo a lot of the past history which did happen hundreds of years ago, not steadily stealing more and more of their territory and sending the army to kill them in the present time.

my family have been in one place for the better part of a millennium

Thats the argument the Palestinians use, except its two millennia, a Russian jew's wish to take their home trumps two millennia of residence in the view of the Israeli courts and Israeli and world jewry's public opinion.

I'm concerned with nutcases causing trouble, christians, jews and muslims and their end-of-times fantasies are the source of at least half the problems in the world many of which affect me directly.

Finger-pointing between the groups each accusing the other of terrorism and asserting divine right to kill everyone else shows none of them really have a grip on their own thinking or religion.

Lately it has been the jews triggering most of the problems to suit their selfish agendas, we can do without it and they need to be identified as the trouble-makers, not seen as victims in anything thats ever happened.

Except the ME is only anti-west and theocratic thanks to our support for Israel and other corrupt groups we've foisted on them and supported.

The best thing we could do would be send the 'Israelis' back to Europe and Russia and stop harassing the rest of the ME to protect their nuttery.

Or ideally they could just accept they're really egyptian and find a spot of desert there that they like, if relying on ancient history to justify current behaviour is really something they want to carry on with.

Well the jews seem to take their roots in Egypt quite seriously, they celebrate it every year no?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passover

All the current animosity in the region and against the west is pretty well exclusively thanks to Israel and their murderous activity, not a line drawn on a map delineating a desert 200 years ago

The Exodus (Hebrew: יציאת מצרים, Yeẓi’at Miẓrayim: lit. 'Departure from Egypt') is the founding myth of the Israelites.[1][a] It tells a story of Israelite enslavement and departure from Egypt, revelations at biblical Mount Sinai, and wanderings in the wilderness up to the borders of Canaan.[2] Its message is that the Israelites were delivered from slavery by Yahweh their god, and therefore belong to him by covenant.[1]

The consensus of modern scholars is that the Bible does not give an accurate account of the origins of the Israelites, who appear instead to have formed as an entity in the central highlands of Canaan in the late second millennium BCE from the indigenous Canaanite culture.[3][4][5] Most modern scholars believe that the story of the Exodus has some historical basis,[6][7] but contains little material that is provable.[8]

In the first book of the Pentateuch, the Book of Genesis, the Israelites had come to live in Egypt in the Land of Goshen during a famine due to the fact that an Israelite, Joseph, had become a high official in the court of the pharaoh.

and today in primary school religious education ... dilbert learns what a jew is.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-13 20:25:24)

the map is a linguistic map. you can trace the history of peoples through their language, its permutations, its spread. in the same way that all european languages are known to have an indo-aryan lineage. semitic languages have a very traceable genealogy which accords to actual, real, material histories in the region. the languages that people speak, each and every day, is kind of a better record than superstious myths and tales of miracles, don't you think? words enclose philological lineages. but let's ignore spoken language and focus on tales of resurrections and wanderings in the desert. LMAO.

nations, constitutions, borders are all legal fictions. but a language is a material, actual fact. people have been speaking languages recognisable as 'semitic' in those regions for thousands of years. it is clear that jews are from the area historically known as canaan. NOT egypt. the fact that jewish foundation myths mention a period of exile and enslavement in egypt is meant as a prelude to their RETURN to the 'promised land', i.e. that from whence they originally came. jesus fuck you are dumb.

in terms of actual history, the tribes of canaan are thought to have consolidated their groupings after the late bronze age collapse in the mediterranean, when small, threatened peoples moved into the highlands. this is the period when egypt lost its dominance over canaan and when the philistines, another group in the region, also arrived from the collapsing mycenaean kingdom and consolidated: thus the deliverance of 'the promised land' to the small israelite tribes and thus commencing the historical enmity between israelites and philistines, another tale that has been much mythologized in biblical texts. you know, ACTUAL history with MATERIAL evidence.

amazing how quickly you abandon all scientific pretence when it suits you.

Canaan for around three centuries was a playground for Egypt. It had been partly depopulated, few of its towns had defensive walls, and its petty kings put in place by Egypt crawled at Pharaoh’s feet. Egypt ruled Canaan with an iron fist.

The arrival of the Sea People [i.e. marauding groups during the bronze age collapse] on the Nile delta put the previously unassailable Egyptian army on the back foot. Forced to defend herself against wave after wave of invasion Egypt had little spare time to maintain the empire it had built up – Egyptian influence in Canaan began to decline. Retreating home from Canaan the Egyptian forces left a power vacuum in their wake, a vacuum that allowed smaller powers to emerge and control territories and kingdoms of their own.

Donald B. Redford, “The Coming of the Sea Peoples”, Egypt, Canaan, and Israel in Ancient Times (Princeton University Press, 1992)

the archaeological record is definitive on this: the israelites emerged in the canaan highlands at the beginning of the first iron age (~1200-1000 BCE) and settled down in small villages which they built from scratch. their historical homeland is NOT egypt.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-13 20:58:10)

where did 'english' originate from? at some point there was a consolidation of existing groups and a new order emerged. every group is historically contingent and formed by material processes. there are no essential, a priori nations or collectives, you idiot. the tribes of israel just happened to start amassing power and influence, along with a population explosion, in the first iron age in canaan.

nobody is contesting their 'divine right' to anywhere. every group has foundation myths or origins, though. it's a part and parcel of most cultures.

rome wasn't literally founded by two brothers who suckled from a wolf, you know.

every state is based on a foundational act of violence. this is actually textbook foucault. all of the traditions, pageantry, the attempts to retroactively rewrite history to 'justify' the state's origins: all much written about and much understood. even 'enlightened' liberal democracies were founded on bloodbaths, conquest, terror and repression. that's how states consolidate themselves generally. the rape of the sabines? no stable european country or national border today is free of this violence or threat thereof. it took centuries of warfare, fractiousness and 'superiority complexes' before europe agreed to sign treaties, sealing in state borders and a status quo.

you talking about jews as if they are uniquely violent or uniquely aberrant is utterly moronic. you need to read a fucking book. start with basic religious education. jews are not from egypt. jews are not unique in having superiority delusions or monomyths about being 'chosen'. that's kind of an intrinsic part of all northern european protestantism, you know. ever heard of calvin? the covenant? predestination? 'oh great, these pushy protestants who think they are chosen and go around colonising the world, eradicating entire native populations ...' see how dumb you sound?

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-13 22:09:14)

european settlers believed they had a god-given right to the new world for most of the age of expansionism. it's kind of in the name. america was literally founded by religious nuts who believed they were god's chosen people. european states made a barely concealed scramble for african territorities under the pretence of it being their god-assigned role to 'bring christian civilisation to all the corners of the earth'. the list goes on and on and on.

what israel is doing today is fascistic and wrong. but to claim that it is exceptional or some unique evil is historically illiterate.

britain literally invented concentration camps. germany was guilty of ethnic cleansing in africa, which was denied until only very recently. france and belgium as other major european powers had a direct role in several genocides in central and west africa. are you seriously this fucking dumb?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_an … a_genocide

The Herero and Namaqua genocide or the Herero and Nama genocide was the first genocide of the 20th century,[4][5][6] waged by the German Empire against the Herero (Ovaherero), the Nama, and the San in German South West Africa (now Namibia). It occurred between 1904 and 1908.

Between 24,000 and 100,000 Hereros, 10,000 Nama and an unknown number of San died in the genocide.[1][7][8][9][10][11][12] The first phase of the genocide was characterised by widespread death from starvation and dehydration, due to the prevention of the Herero from leaving the Namib desert by German forces. Once defeated, thousands of Hereros and Namas were imprisoned in concentration camps, where the majority died of diseases, abuse, and exhaustion.[13][14]

or how about the preventable famines caused by the british in india? the depredations of the east india company? the belgian congo?



'A Congolese man stares at the severed hand and foot of his five-year-old daughter as punishment for failing to make the daily rubber quota, in Belgian Congo, 1904.'

the fact you downplay the holocaust or try to equate israel's actions in palestine with mass industrial death camps which gassed 100,000s of people a month just does a total disservice to your argument. you can criticize israel without needing to stick your head in the sand and or spout historically illiterate claptrap.

The world has supposedly progressed

according to who? the only person who spouts inane generalizations like this is you. it's sub-historical rubbish. you're living in dilbert la-la-land where the west is enlightened and rational and brilliant and white people know best. nobody else thinks that way who actually has read a book on contemporary history. you quite literally whitewash your european or white-centric history at the same time as you poison all your thinking with anti-semitism.

ethnic cleansing happened in europe, on the doorstep of the world's liberal democracies, in the 1990s ffs. for most of it the western world looked on and did nothing. did you miss the collapse of yugoslavia or something? talk about 'we don't see total war in the west', lmao. what was srebrenica if not a prelude to what we see in the gaza strip? jesus fucking christ you are thick. inconveniently for you this ethnic cleansing against a population of muslims who were sealed up in a town and then shelled and bombarded was committed by ... devout christians.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

the abiding lesson of the 20th century is that even the most advanced, civilized, stable countries in the world can descend into barbarism and genocide in a generation, if it's let to happen. that's the cautionary tale, not this contrived claptrap about us 'moving on', 'progressing', 'being better than that' or israel or whatever. it's sententious nonsense and totally devoid of any real historical or political analysis. if white christian europe can go from the liberal weimar republic to auschwitz in a single generation, you really need to develop a few new thoughts on israel.

Last edited by uziq (2021-05-13 23:30:38)