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2020-03-11 10:22:00
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

A lot of people who follow your political ideology don't want to actually do anything to provide treatment though. I read the same news sites as you. I am aware about how the rank and fill libertarians and Republicans feel.
No? Seems to me the people that would be most at risk are covered by Medicare already.
Don't you hate medicare and all government healthcare?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 10:23:48
uziq
Member
+494|3680

Jay wrote:

I took my youngest to the doctor this morning because he had a fever and was sent home from school yesterday afternoon. When I asked her about the virus she just shook her head and said that the panic surrounding it is giving her a headache. She said the only people that have anything to worry about are the elderly. The rest of us will barely notice it.
this is wrong. in italy they have seen many 'young' people in the 20-50 age bracket develop pneumonia. leading public health ministers from italy have already been on television in the UK talking about how relatively young and healthy people without any pre-existing health conditions require CPAP (ventilators) or intensive care intubation. they are having to triage the elderly to prioritize the low number of ventilators they have for young people. it doesn't matter how healthy you are, if you develop an interstitial case of pneumonia, your blood-o2 and respiratory system is going to drop to 20% of capacity and you're going to need a ventilator to get through it without dying or lasting physical damage.

Twenty percent of those who have been infected and present serious symptoms need to be intubated for respiratory failure because interstitial pneumonia develops. The healing process for pneumonia cases is very long: at least two weeks in intubation, two weeks in the hospital, and then another two weeks at home
cases of recovered people in china are already showing that survivors, even young ones, are being left with lung scarring, some of whom will deal with respiratory problems for the rest of their lives.

coronavirus has a suite of comorbidities, including affecting the heart. again, bad news to suffer tissue damage to the heart when you're 40, no two ways about it. tests of infected individuals' spinal fluids have shown coronavirus in the CSF and dura mater. not the sort of place you want pathogens breeding and multiplying like mould under a sink.

for the very young, like your children, who do not seem to be affected, the problem becomes one of them effectively 'super-spreading' the disease and incubating it freely. children are basically going to become biological bombs, many of them symptomless, that will kill their grandparents.

it seems like the guidance in the US is badly out of step with the reality of the virus.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-11 10:31:27)

2020-03-11 10:31:11
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5586|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

A lot of people who follow your political ideology don't want to actually do anything to provide treatment though. I read the same news sites as you. I am aware about how the rank and fill libertarians and Republicans feel.
No? Seems to me the people that would be most at risk are covered by Medicare already.
Don't you hate medicare and all government healthcare?
I think it is inefficient and prone to fraud and excess in general.

In an ideal world, Medicare would be privatized and people would purchase their own health insurance. At this point, it's far too late. People have lived their lives in such a way that they expect Social Security and Medicare to be there for them when they retire.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-03-11 10:35:59
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948
What would be the free market solution for insurance companies refusing to cover Corona treatment?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 10:39:48
Larssen
Member
+99|2116

Jay wrote:

I took my youngest to the doctor this morning because he had a fever and was sent home from school yesterday afternoon. When I asked her about the virus she just shook her head and said that the panic surrounding it is giving her a headache. She said the only people that have anything to worry about are the elderly. The rest of us will barely notice it.
After an entire country decides to go into lockdown you'd think the panic surrounding it is a little warranted. This is unprecedented.

I think the speed of the spread is catching everyone off guard in a way.
2020-03-11 10:44:14
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5586|London, England

SuperJail Warden wrote:

What would be the free market solution for insurance companies refusing to cover Corona treatment?
They go out of business from wrongful death lawsuits.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-03-11 10:45:20
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5586|London, England

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

I took my youngest to the doctor this morning because he had a fever and was sent home from school yesterday afternoon. When I asked her about the virus she just shook her head and said that the panic surrounding it is giving her a headache. She said the only people that have anything to worry about are the elderly. The rest of us will barely notice it.
After an entire country decides to go into lockdown you'd think the panic surrounding it is a little warranted. This is unprecedented.

I think the speed of the spread is catching everyone off guard in a way.
Looks like normal virus spread. It's just being paid attention to more because it's novel.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2020-03-11 10:45:54
uziq
Member
+494|3680
long incubation times + exponential growth pattern + inadequate testing = ???

the daily news is effectively a week behind the 'actual' state-of-affairs, and meanwhile in many parts it's spreading unrestricted among people with no symptoms.

add to this the changing understanding of the contagiousness of the virus. previously we thought it was down to physical handshakes and contact, but actually it has been shown to remain active in the air for 20-30 minutes in enclosed spaces, such as public transport or in air conditioned facilities.

fun!
2020-03-11 10:48:45
uziq
Member
+494|3680

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

I took my youngest to the doctor this morning because he had a fever and was sent home from school yesterday afternoon. When I asked her about the virus she just shook her head and said that the panic surrounding it is giving her a headache. She said the only people that have anything to worry about are the elderly. The rest of us will barely notice it.
After an entire country decides to go into lockdown you'd think the panic surrounding it is a little warranted. This is unprecedented.

I think the speed of the spread is catching everyone off guard in a way.
Looks like normal virus spread. It's just being paid attention to more because it's novel.
what is a 'normal virus spread'? make some sense.

The measure scientists use to determine how easily a virus spreads is known as the "basic reproduction number," or R0 (pronounced R-nought). This is an estimate of the average number of people who catch the virus from a single infected person, Live science previously reported. The flu has an R0 value of about 1.3, according to The New York Times.

Researchers are still working to determine the R0 for COVID-19.  Preliminary studies have estimated an R0 value for the new coronavirus to be between 2 and 3, according to the JAMA review study published Feb. 28. This means each infected person has spread the virus to an average of 2 to 3 people.
it's literally 2x as contagious as flu and around 20x as deadly. the figures are widely available and data is pouring out every single day.

none of which, by the way, takes into account the fact that the biggest 'risk' from coronavirus comes from the fact that health systems are going to be overwhelmed. seasonal flu comes around every year and we expect it: it's a well-known phenomenon. there are hospital beds, vaccines, care and treatment resources available. when you have 1000s of people developing pneumonia and requiring intubation in one huge spike, in the space of 1-2 months, your health system is not going to cope. people will die avoidably.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-11 10:51:20)

2020-03-11 10:54:21
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

What would be the free market solution for insurance companies refusing to cover Corona treatment?
They go out of business from wrongful death lawsuits.
Do bankruptcy courts have the power to bring the dead back to life too?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 11:09:49
Larssen
Member
+99|2116

Jay wrote:

Larssen wrote:

Jay wrote:

I took my youngest to the doctor this morning because he had a fever and was sent home from school yesterday afternoon. When I asked her about the virus she just shook her head and said that the panic surrounding it is giving her a headache. She said the only people that have anything to worry about are the elderly. The rest of us will barely notice it.
After an entire country decides to go into lockdown you'd think the panic surrounding it is a little warranted. This is unprecedented.

I think the speed of the spread is catching everyone off guard in a way.
Looks like normal virus spread. It's just being paid attention to more because it's novel.
Well it's already doing a lot of damage. Even if you assume only a 2% increase in the infected population per day that's still several hundred million corona patients before years' end. The effect on the economy and health services would be hard to overstate.
2020-03-11 11:12:21
uziq
Member
+494|3680
it is not a ‘normal’ virus spread. the WHO have declared it a pandemic. it is more contagious than the seasonal viruses we see each year.

an entire country, including one of europe’s richest and most financially active regions, has totally shut itself down. normal?! does this happen every winter and i missed the story?

i’m not sure what constitutes a normal virus spread, i’m not sure jay does either, but this is not it.

Last edited by uziq (2020-03-11 11:13:58)

2020-03-11 11:15:46
uziq
Member
+494|3680
on the bright side, it must be an exciting time to be an epidemiologist. so much data, the biggest genome sequencing effort ever, international collaboration.

whoever develops the first widely successful vaccine will automatically get a Nobel.

“i like this stuff!” – d. trump.
2020-03-11 11:23:18
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948
The fact that this thing is spreading to world leaders should be a major red flag of the severity of it. Health ministers in the U.K., China, and Iran have either caught it or dropped dead from it. Does that seem normal to anyone?
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 11:56:51
Larssen
Member
+99|2116
The crisis seems to be exposing a lot of issues simultaneously:

-the fragility of our economic recovery since the 2010s
-the inadequacy of national health services in times of crisis
-the immense disunity in the EU. Countries not coordinating measures or even helping one another. China agreed to deliver 2 million masks and tons of medical equipment to Italy, meanwhile not a single EU country will provide aid beyond EU money funds for business.
-the role of media in acute worldwide crises. Not only in the speed of information dissemination but by inadvertently causing a rush on health services.

The last point is the most conflicting one. On one hand the amount of detail and information you can get about (world) events is fantastic, but particularly in trying times or politically sensitive moments the public debate/outrage is sent into a steroidal rage of sorts through constant bombardment of headlines and live updates. There is no control whatsoever on information output or the public reaction. In times like these it's questionable if that really is so great.

Last edited by Larssen (2020-03-11 12:01:59)

2020-03-11 12:07:16
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7000|PNW

Perhaps Jay misinterpreted the doctor's frustration. People snapping up medical supplies they don't need and assuming every last sniffle or cough is the corona virus would be understandably frustrating to a medical professional. No?

It is a little concerning that this doctor is apparently venting to a patient's dad. And if they are indeed downplaying the threat of this thing to people who catch it, perhaps it's time to find a new pediatrician. How many awful doctors, for instance, have downplayed people's cancer symptoms until it became terminal?

Maybe Jay's kids later: "I was prescribed prozac for seasonal allergies!"
2020-03-11 12:14:38
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948

unnamednewbie13 wrote:

Perhaps Jay misinterpreted the doctor's frustration. People snapping up medical supplies they don't need and assuming every last sniffle or cough is the corona virus would be understandably frustrating to a medical professional. No?

It is a little concerning that this doctor is apparently venting to a patient's dad. And if they are indeed downplaying the threat of this thing to people who catch it, perhaps it's time to find a new pediatrician. How many awful doctors, for instance, have downplayed people's cancer symptoms until it became terminal?

Maybe Jay's kids later: "I was prescribed prozac for seasonal allergies!"
My doctor whined to me about millennials a few weeks ago. My mom warned me the lady likes to talk about herself and sure enough she gets into why she doesn't like millennials because they always run late. (I was there early).


And I don't know why they whine about too many patients. They get paid by how many patients come in, right? Or are they salary? Who knows. There probably isn't an uniform system.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 12:45:18
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6860|949

totally just like the flu. The flu causes major universities to shut down classes and move online. The seasonal flu causes multinational companies to come out with business continuity plans that specifically address pandemics and global impacts to business.

To say you can't contain the spread of this is just asinine. It's almost as if...the government, who are stakeholders in the health and safety of their population, and businesses, who are interested in the health and safety of their employees (gotta protect that bottom line, after all) are enacting measures to limit exposure and spread.

Playing make-believe will only work for so long. If and when it becomes a serious issue in the U.S., people who are well-prepared (that doesn't mean hoarding toilet paper and hand sanitizer) will fare better than those who aren't.

It would be very helpful if our medical establishment could work with the government to develop the ability to rapidly test, diagnose and triage positive cases. Unfortunately it looks like the federal government response is inadequate, which will lead to a disjointed effort by individual states (California and Washington right now, surely more in the future) to deal with the issues on their own. Lack of leadership from the federal government is and will impact the health of U.S. citizens and will likely lead to increased infection rates that would not be realized if there was a developed plan of action.

Sad!
2020-03-11 13:21:55
uziq
Member
+494|3680
i’m sure to jay the universities are just another example of ninny liberals over-hyping everything, and probably god-damned democrat voters, to boot, trying to scupper trump’s Great Economic Miracle and jay’s own continued ascent up the singing ladder to material heaven. probably even the same people who encouraged the blacks to start smoking weed, leading to their ruination!!’
2020-03-11 13:33:19
SuperJail Warden
Gone Forever
+641|3948
Both of my sisters are nurses. There is a patient infected and in isolation at their hospital but the city she works in said there aren't any confirmed cases in the city a few days ago and hasn't updated anyone. There was a worker at another hospital nearby she knows that said they had two cases also.

Probably just rumors. But considering the thing seems to spread by a magnitude of 10 every week and I live in the NYC area those are believable rumors. The U.S. has a thousand cases now. If we followed Italy and China's infection rate, we will have 10,000 in a week which is just a little more than Italy's confirmed 9,200.
https://i.imgur.com/xsoGn9X.jpg
2020-03-11 13:40:27
uziq
Member
+494|3680
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/c … elays.html

just leaving this here.
2020-03-11 13:57:01
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7000|PNW

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/gover … li=BBnb7Kz

"Typical Democrat!"
2020-03-11 14:02:46
pirana6
Go Cougs!
+691|6519|Washington St.
He closed our schools too. No traffic for the first time since the early 90s
2020-03-11 14:03:52
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,814|6334|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

It's a good thing that the elderly aren't people then.
So... focus efforts on providing treatment to the elderly instead of sending everyone who will barely feel an impact into a panic? You can't stop the spread, so focus on treatment.
Treatment is going to be putting people on a mattress and seeing if they die or not. There is zero chance there will be enough ventilators to go around.
Avoiding infection is the only realistic option.
Fuck Israel
2020-03-11 14:06:18
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,814|6334|eXtreme to the maX

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

What would be the free market solution for insurance companies refusing to cover Corona treatment?
They go out of business from wrongful death lawsuits.
Oh god you're still plugging this shit?

Jay wrote:

If my wife dies I'll be able to sue an insolvent company and the next medical insurance company will have a line in their small print "pandemics not covered". God bless America
Fuck Israel

 

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