for the record i am discussing people like you, on the sidelines, who get very passionate about the debate even though it doesn't affect or concern you in any way. that's because you're more concerned with 'the culture' and 'defending values'. i wouldn't call a transgender person 'sick' just like i wouldn't call a woman who wants abortion rights 'sick'. it's the people who stake their identities on winning the collective-identity argument and poking into other people's private lives that i'm addressing.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
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What makes you think I don't care about these people?
saturday morning coffee reading. quite interesting. it's available in audio if you prefer.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n02 … ng-natural
first half is about surrogacy industry, formerly in india but now increasingly in places like california. it discusses things such as the differentials between race and class when it comes to these questions. second part questions the 'normality-producing' functions of children and their role in family, binary sexuation, state/nationhood, ethnicity, etc. this is where it gets really interesting: men having babies, and thus the abolition of the most fundamental labour-division (and inequality) between the sexes. it gets a bit into population numbers discussions in terms of eco-catastrophe, too. the tech is pretty much there for us to have as many, or more properly as few, designer babies as we want, man or woman (but like all aspects of the future-in-the-present, it's unevenly distributed according to wealth and race).
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v42/n02 … ng-natural
first half is about surrogacy industry, formerly in india but now increasingly in places like california. it discusses things such as the differentials between race and class when it comes to these questions. second part questions the 'normality-producing' functions of children and their role in family, binary sexuation, state/nationhood, ethnicity, etc. this is where it gets really interesting: men having babies, and thus the abolition of the most fundamental labour-division (and inequality) between the sexes. it gets a bit into population numbers discussions in terms of eco-catastrophe, too. the tech is pretty much there for us to have as many, or more properly as few, designer babies as we want, man or woman (but like all aspects of the future-in-the-present, it's unevenly distributed according to wealth and race).
in this sort of view, transgender people should be dilbert's closest allies and best friends.Just as a sex worker may not be able to help but notice the need to ‘feign nonboredom, manage power-laden transactions, regulate enjoyment’ even when spending supposedly free time with the one she loves, so women who have worked as paid surrogates may start looking askance at the children they’ve already produced. ‘We need children because we have no other resources,’ Lewis quotes one woman in Bangalore as saying. ‘That is why the poor need children. Why else?’ ‘If you want to, you can be a mother,’ another says. ‘It stuck in my throat like a bitter fruit.’
It’s ‘ahistorical (at best)’, as Lewis says, ‘to claim that what we produce when we’re pregnant is simply life, new life, love, or ... human knitted-togetherness’. And it’s not just ‘the poor’ who have children they don’t want or can’t look after, or thought they wanted, only to discover they don’t. They cost so much, and consume so many planetary resources, and get sadder and sadder, blaming their parents and their parents’ generation for more and more. But some people seem to want them so much, they’re prepared to buy them, at top dollar. Why does anyone want children, if they don’t need them and aren’t forced to have them? What are all these babies and children for?
Individuals, Lewis suggests, may be seeking to keep a husband, extend a lineage, win status and standing as a prize breeder of ‘personal mascots, psychic crutches, heirs, scapegoats and fetishes’. Polities generally want workers, cannon fodder, more specimens of whichever ethnicity that polity happens to like. Both, Lee Edelman argues in No Future (2014), use ‘the pervasive invocation of the Child as the emblem of futurity’s unquestioned value’. Lewis sees the desire for children as an aspect of a bigger turning-inward, ‘the deep, sublimated depression of a world in eco-catastrophe’, a burrowing ever deeper into the sofa. This depression can also run in an anti-natalist direction, as birthrates among rich people in rich countries ‘plummet’ – the usual expression – to around 1.7, well below the 2.1 replacement rate.
Only forty years on from the birth of Louise Brown, what’s really ‘curious’ about assisted reproduction technologies, as the sociologist Sarah Franklin has written, is how quickly they have come to seem so normal. These technologies do not just produce babies, but normality itself, and its main components: mothers, fathers, parents, families, races, nations, societies and cultures, not to mention sex and gender and biology and kinship and ideas of the desirable and the good.
The dominant story features a nice, white, married young man and woman who have a lovely spare room they’ve done up themselves for the longed-for baby. In the case of rich people in rich countries, it’s increasingly fine to be gay or brown or mixed or a single woman with a great career. But all this proves is that normality is pliable, so long as you can pay for it. ‘If there’s one thing homonormativity reveals, it’s the troubling fact that you can be victimised and in no way be radical,’ as Maggie Nelson wrote in The Argonauts (the words in italics are Leo Bersani’s). It’s not to put down the love and care parents of all sorts give their children – my own parenting behaviour fits pretty much into the ‘eternally present, cis-heterosexual, solicitous housewife’ mode that Lewis, quite rightly, derides – to observe that we are massively invested in what Marx called ‘bourgeois claptrap’, a delusional neurosis that causes ‘discomfort, coercion, molestation, abuse, humiliation, depression, battery, murder, mutilation, loneliness, blackmail, exhaustion, psychosis, gender-straitjacketing, racial programming and embourgeoisement’, according to Lewis. And which only becomes ‘more disgusting’ – Marx again – when you think about how this nonsense depends on wrecking ‘family ties among the proletarians’ whose children are ‘transformed into simple articles of commerce and instruments of labour’. Dress your child in fairly traded organic cotton, don’t dress your child in fairly traded organic cotton: other people’s children will go on picking through the pesticides either way. Commission a child from Ukraine or Colombia, don’t commission a child from Ukraine or Colombia: other people’s daughters will go on doing this work anyway.
None of this has anything to do with what Bloomberg said, which was about what the average person thinks.uziq wrote:
for the record i am discussing people like you, on the sidelines, who get very passionate about the debate even though it doesn't affect or concern you in any way. that's because you're more concerned with 'the culture' and 'defending values'. i wouldn't call a transgender person 'sick' just like i wouldn't call a woman who wants abortion rights 'sick'. it's the people who stake their identities on winning the collective-identity argument and poking into other people's private lives that i'm addressing.
Radical progressivism and sneering at the average citizen gave us Brexit, so keep it up chap.
This kind of thing is just going to gift Trump another four years.
The average person doesn't see the value in letting mentally ill men into women's lavatories.
What next, let middle-aged men who identify as pre-schoolers attend kindergartens?
Who are you to say there's something wrong with them and they shouldn't be allowed to be who they feel they are?
I'm sure it'll work out fine.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-02-09 22:06:28)
Fuck Israel
this whole ‘men going into restrooms with young girls’ thing has become such a trope with you lot. as if that’s what the vast majority of people who are pro-trans rights are really about. it’s pointless to even engage with it.
it’s basically the ‘islam is bad because here’s a story about grooming gangs in barnsley’ of the trans discussion. you crying continually ‘but think of the poor little children!’ in order to justify your prejudices is about as tiresome as you handwringing over the palestinians that you’ve never swept a particle of dust for in your whole fucking life. on the one hand you have virulent anti-semites who are ‘worried about the jews influence in australia’, but of course it’s really dead palestine babies that moves you; and on the other you’ve got the graham linehan line, bigoted blokes who latch onto an extremely niche and hardcore feminist-exclusionary view that says transgender people shouldn’t have access to the safe spaces that women have achieved for themselves.
both lines are pretty shabby and cynical when someone like you manipulates them.
news flash. having a body dysmorphia is not the same thing as being a pedophile.
it’s basically the ‘islam is bad because here’s a story about grooming gangs in barnsley’ of the trans discussion. you crying continually ‘but think of the poor little children!’ in order to justify your prejudices is about as tiresome as you handwringing over the palestinians that you’ve never swept a particle of dust for in your whole fucking life. on the one hand you have virulent anti-semites who are ‘worried about the jews influence in australia’, but of course it’s really dead palestine babies that moves you; and on the other you’ve got the graham linehan line, bigoted blokes who latch onto an extremely niche and hardcore feminist-exclusionary view that says transgender people shouldn’t have access to the safe spaces that women have achieved for themselves.
both lines are pretty shabby and cynical when someone like you manipulates them.
news flash. having a body dysmorphia is not the same thing as being a pedophile.
Last edited by uziq (2020-02-10 01:05:03)
I didn't bring up the restrooms thing, Bloomberg did, there's no apparent solution and there's not going to be one however many times you gripe about people being 'anti-progressive'.
Islamic gangs have committed thousands and thousands of rapes, other ethnicities don't seem to organise themselves in such large groups.
Now we have Brexit and Britain will be able to discriminate against people its citizens don't want in the country, and progressivism has been set back a good few decades - bad luck for people with a nutty agenda I guess.
Israel-Palestine - I am probably more concerned about the general level of trouble in the world that planting a vicious bigoted cult in the ME has created and how it impacts me TBH, via wars, terrorism and cost TBH.
The IDF deliberately targeting children, with the public and the religious leaders cheering them on, is just an example of why the whole project, and the West's involvement in it, has been a horrible and costly mistake.
But yeah, anti-semite, whatever, its lost all meaning now.
Islamic gangs have committed thousands and thousands of rapes, other ethnicities don't seem to organise themselves in such large groups.
Now we have Brexit and Britain will be able to discriminate against people its citizens don't want in the country, and progressivism has been set back a good few decades - bad luck for people with a nutty agenda I guess.
Israel-Palestine - I am probably more concerned about the general level of trouble in the world that planting a vicious bigoted cult in the ME has created and how it impacts me TBH, via wars, terrorism and cost TBH.
The IDF deliberately targeting children, with the public and the religious leaders cheering them on, is just an example of why the whole project, and the West's involvement in it, has been a horrible and costly mistake.
But yeah, anti-semite, whatever, its lost all meaning now.
Fuck Israel
my point was that it has become a talking point, a trope, used by the right to retrench its positions and try to reclaim any gains made. so because there's a venn diagram, however small, of sex offenders and transgender people, all transgender people should have their gender rights revoked? seems about as reasonable as encouraging 'the british to discriminate who they want to let in' after a few high-profile grooming gang cases. 'thousands and thousands of rapes' lmao. it sounds fittingly biblical.
i mean there's nothing nutty at all about encouraging a nativist, racist immigration policy because of a few court cases. it makes perfect sense. about as much sense as banning travel from half the arab world after a terrorist attack. white civilization winning bigly!
i mean there's nothing nutty at all about encouraging a nativist, racist immigration policy because of a few court cases. it makes perfect sense. about as much sense as banning travel from half the arab world after a terrorist attack. white civilization winning bigly!
Men are getting beaten up using women's lavatories - lets hear your solution.
Now we have Brexit and they can be deported.
Seems like you're out of touch, as usual.
Maybe spend your time in the real world, not reading up on woke claptrap.
I'm seeing a bit of a pattern here.A report by the deputy children's commissioner in 2012 said that 33% of child sex abuse by gangs in Britain was committed by British Asians, where Asians are 7% of the population, but concluded that it was "irresponsible" to dwell on the data.
Now we have Brexit and they can be deported.
Uzique wrote:
a few high-profile grooming gang cases. 'thousands and thousands of rapes' lmao. it sounds fittingly biblical.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h … 15261.htmlGrooming ‘epidemic’ as almost 19,000 children identified as sexual exploitation victims in England
...
Sajid Javid promised a review into the characteristics of grooming gangs in 2018, saying high-profile cases included a “high proportion of men of Pakistani heritage” and that “cultural reasons” could be at play.
...
In Rotherham, where revelations over the abuse of an estimated 1,500 victims sparked a national scandal in 2012, the National Crime Agency has identified more than 190 suspects.
Seems like you're out of touch, as usual.
Maybe spend your time in the real world, not reading up on woke claptrap.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2020-02-10 02:38:28)
Fuck Israel
i'm sorry but what does brexit have to do with 'deporting' british-asians? they were born here. how is leaving europe related in any way to deporting people? to where? india/pakistan, i presume? see, this is the gloss committed by little englander dolts who think, fired up by the daily mail and tabloids, that a vote for brexit is a vote to 'take back britain' for the 'native' population. except for the tiny minority of cases that go all the way to the ECHR, leaving the EU doesn't have fuck-all to do with 'deporting' brown people. nice rhetoric, though. says a lot.Now we have Brexit and they can be deported.
somehow i doubt that a conservative party that has gone to the extent of over-promoting british-pakistanis to the role of chancellor and home secretary is quite going to pander to your wet-dream of 'white england' and 'deporting muslamics'.
19,000 people haven't been raped. your rhetoric, as above, is overblown and sensationalized. i'm not denying the existence of said gangs, but my point is PRECISELY that people such as yourself use these rotten groups as excuses to try jettisoning an entire ethnicity from the country. 'send them home!' send WHO home? they are british. i suppose every other british-pakistani person who settled here generations ago is tarred with the same brush, because of an estimated 190 suspects? seems reasonable.
and in the same way, a fight in a toilet becomes 'down with this trangenderism sort of thing'. very well done dilbert! you're really onto something.
i don't read 'woke claptrap' but i've read enough of those blighted media studies to know what the intended psychological effect is of those grids and line-ups of brown faces. oooh! scary! white fright!
Last edited by uziq (2020-02-10 02:52:52)
European courts have stood in the way of deporting dual nationals who commit crimes. Its hard enough to deport people who aren't even EU nationals.uziq wrote:
i'm sorry but what does brexit have to do with 'deporting' british-asians? they were born here. how is leaving europe related in any way to deporting people? to where? india/pakistan, i presume? see, this is the gloss committed by little englander dolts who think, fired up by the daily mail and tabloids, that a vote for brexit is a vote to 'take back britain' for the 'native' population. except for the tiny minority of cases that go all the way to the ECHR, leaving the EU doesn't have fuck-all to do with 'deporting' brown people. nice rhetoric, though. says a lot.Now we have Brexit and they can be deported.
Extraditing Abu Hamza took eight years,
Most of these criminals weren't in fact born in the UK.
We'll see I guess
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 … ng-members
http://researchbriefings.files.parliame … P-8062.pdfThe Home Secretary’s ability to deport criminals from EEA Member States is restricted by
the operation of EU law, which requires that expulsion must be proportionate and based
exclusively on the personal conduct of the individual concerned and level of ‘threat’ that
they pose to public policy or public security.
The position of EEA citizens will change after Brexit, when EEA citizens and their family
members will come within the scope of UK domestic law on deportation. The timeframe
for the changes to be implemented will depend on the type of exit the UK has from the
EU.
This is a major policy change for EEA nationals, who will now find
it easier to be deported by the UK government, no matter how
long they have been living in the UK or the status of their
residence in the UK. Under the pre-exit day position, if an EEA
national had been resident for ten years or was under 18 they
could not be deported without there being imperative grounds of
public security. This was an extremely high threshold requiring
serious criminality.
Now a prison sentence of 12 months will give
rise to a presumption of deportation.
Enjoy.
I said thousands, apparently there were thousands in just one case, there are many more cases under investigation.Uzique wrote:
19,000 people haven't been raped. your rhetoric, as above, is overblown and sensationalized.
Dilbert_X wrote:
In Rotherham, where revelations over the abuse of an estimated 1,500 victims sparked a national scandal in 2012, the National Crime Agency has identified more than 190 suspects.
Fuck Israel
rape is the most severe aspect of 'sexual grooming'. not to say they aren't all terrible crimes, but the alarmist rhetoric of 'thousands upon thousands are raped' is textbook racist scaremongering. a sexual grooming offence could be a few lascivious text messages or dick pics sent to an underage girl. but of course you're more interested in posting line-ups of brown faces and planting the image of packs of men gang-raping 'thousands upon thousands' of innocent white british girls. we've seen it all before.
this issue was just all so much simpler in the era of emmett till, eh!
yes, thanks for the guardian article, which confirmed exactly the line i just put forward: (1) you can't deport someone because they're brown or muslim, because inconveniently (for you) they are british citizens; thus deportation is only possible in the most extreme cases where they have dual-citizenship; (2) the home secretary and chancellor, both british-asian muslims, aren't exactly keen to deal with the rhetoric and optics of deporting other british-asians. the conservative party have them there up-front because they make for good headlines about how 'inclusive' the tory party is.
what's the relevance of your stuff about the EEA deportations? yes, brexit will affect our ability to deport people from the european economic area. well done. remind me how this contradicts my line that the actions of british-asians has FUCK ALL to do with brexit again? seems you're just getting a little too fired up and hot under the collar with this triumphalist 'brexit means brexit!' rhetoric. calm down, dear, leaving the EU doesn't mean we can suddenly deport british-pakistanis at whim. pakistan isn't in the EEA.
not sure where 'most of these criminals weren't in fact born in the UK' comes from. can you cite this, please? i'm at work and can't be bothered to dig through several links to dismiss your daily mail shitragging.
this issue was just all so much simpler in the era of emmett till, eh!
yes, thanks for the guardian article, which confirmed exactly the line i just put forward: (1) you can't deport someone because they're brown or muslim, because inconveniently (for you) they are british citizens; thus deportation is only possible in the most extreme cases where they have dual-citizenship; (2) the home secretary and chancellor, both british-asian muslims, aren't exactly keen to deal with the rhetoric and optics of deporting other british-asians. the conservative party have them there up-front because they make for good headlines about how 'inclusive' the tory party is.
what's the relevance of your stuff about the EEA deportations? yes, brexit will affect our ability to deport people from the european economic area. well done. remind me how this contradicts my line that the actions of british-asians has FUCK ALL to do with brexit again? seems you're just getting a little too fired up and hot under the collar with this triumphalist 'brexit means brexit!' rhetoric. calm down, dear, leaving the EU doesn't mean we can suddenly deport british-pakistanis at whim. pakistan isn't in the EEA.
not sure where 'most of these criminals weren't in fact born in the UK' comes from. can you cite this, please? i'm at work and can't be bothered to dig through several links to dismiss your daily mail shitragging.
Last edited by uziq (2020-02-10 03:52:13)
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
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Can we talk about women for a second? I mean the struggles women must deal with when dealing with men.
It's really sad when women are emotionally and physically abused by men. It really bothers me that there are so many ladies out there who are hurt by someone they think loves them. That is the worst kind of crime. One committed on someone who loves you.
It's really sad when women are emotionally and physically abused by men. It really bothers me that there are so many ladies out there who are hurt by someone they think loves them. That is the worst kind of crime. One committed on someone who loves you.
yeah no woman ever got hurt or abused before a transgender person went into a bathroom.
the problem here is clearly men with body dysphoria, not gallant, noble, heterosexual men.
the problem here is clearly men with body dysphoria, not gallant, noble, heterosexual men.
The fact is thousands have been raped, and many thousands groomed, its all in the articles.uziq wrote:
rape is the most severe aspect of 'sexual grooming'. not to say they aren't all terrible crimes, but the alarmist rhetoric of 'thousands upon thousands are raped' is textbook racist scaremongering. a sexual grooming offence could be a few lascivious text messages or dick pics sent to an underage girl. but of course you're more interested in posting line-ups of brown faces and planting the image of packs of men gang-raping 'thousands upon thousands' of innocent white british girls. we've seen it all before.
The ECHR covered many people, illegal immigrants, refugees, making it very hard to deport criminals. Now the presumption is dual nationals sentenced to 12 months or more will be deported by default, you get the general picture.what's the relevance of your stuff about the EEA deportations? yes, brexit will affect our ability to deport people from the european economic area. well done. remind me how this contradicts my line that the actions of british-asians has FUCK ALL to do with brexit again? seems you're just getting a little too fired up and hot under the collar with this triumphalist 'brexit means brexit!' rhetoric. calm down, dear, leaving the EU doesn't mean we can suddenly deport british-pakistanis at whim. pakistan isn't in the EEA.
Can't really be bothered TBH, you can look it up if you like.not sure where 'most of these criminals weren't in fact born in the UK' comes from. can you cite this, please? i'm at work and can't be bothered to dig through several links to dismiss your daily mail shitragging.
Fuck Israel
So anyway, why are you so concerned about the LGBQTI community?uziq wrote:
yeah no woman ever got hurt or abused before a transgender person went into a bathroom.
What have you done for them exactly?
Fuck Israel
i haven't done anything for them, but i'm not using the issue of their rights to be prejudiced, am i?
live and let live is a pretty general principle to abide by. as is people's private business is their own, not mine. i'm not quite seeing how i'm supposed to be inconsistent, or a hypocrite? my position, if you can even call it that, is to leave trans people alone and to treat them like everyone else. isn't it for you to justify attacks upon them? not for me to defend my position of leaving the hell out of it.
i have no desires to restrict people in any way regards to gender, sexuality, race/ethnicity, religion, etc. it's not quite the same as you going 'think of the palestinian children!' when you rant yet again about the jew's malign influence on australian politics, or the duped christians in the white house, etc, etc. i'm not pressing these issues, which do not concern me, after all, towards any other ulterior motive or end.
you feeling k hun?
live and let live is a pretty general principle to abide by. as is people's private business is their own, not mine. i'm not quite seeing how i'm supposed to be inconsistent, or a hypocrite? my position, if you can even call it that, is to leave trans people alone and to treat them like everyone else. isn't it for you to justify attacks upon them? not for me to defend my position of leaving the hell out of it.
i have no desires to restrict people in any way regards to gender, sexuality, race/ethnicity, religion, etc. it's not quite the same as you going 'think of the palestinian children!' when you rant yet again about the jew's malign influence on australian politics, or the duped christians in the white house, etc, etc. i'm not pressing these issues, which do not concern me, after all, towards any other ulterior motive or end.
you feeling k hun?
Last edited by uziq (2020-02-11 05:49:54)
How do we know you're not pressing towards some ulterior motive? Whats the relevance
Instead of griping about how trans men are treated why don't you tell us exactly what you yourself have done for them?
Instead of griping about how trans men are treated why don't you tell us exactly what you yourself have done for them?
Fuck Israel
i don't gripe about how trans men are treated? where have i done that?
i said your arguments about the bathroom case, and the prejudice you and macbeth display towards the entire trans community, are specious.
where do you see me crying about how trans people are treated? i haven't done it anywhere. it's not my issue. i'm not the one decrying or trying to invalidate their attempts at recognition, though. that's you. this little onus-flipping exercise is a bit nonsensical. there's no burden on me whatsoever in this exchange.
i said your arguments about the bathroom case, and the prejudice you and macbeth display towards the entire trans community, are specious.
where do you see me crying about how trans people are treated? i haven't done it anywhere. it's not my issue. i'm not the one decrying or trying to invalidate their attempts at recognition, though. that's you. this little onus-flipping exercise is a bit nonsensical. there's no burden on me whatsoever in this exchange.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +640|3935
You know what is really gay? Complaining about feminism. This is in reference to the video game players who complain about women characters or Twitch sluts. Like why do you want to see and hang around guys all day? For all of my faults, complaining about feminism has never been one of them.
complaining about women is bad because you find women attractive. Complaining about trans people is ok because you don't find them attractive.
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +640|3935
Exactly. Thank you for solving the puzzle.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
complaining about women is bad because you find women attractive. Complaining about trans people is ok because you don't find them attractive.
This transgender person is running against Susan Collins. I think this ticks all of Macbeth's boxes
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrNnCe4HdYN … _copy_link
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrNnCe4HdYN … _copy_link
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
- SuperJail Warden
- Gone Forever
- +640|3935
Please ban this man for linking to a disgusting vile fat mentally ill white man.Jay wrote:
This transgender person is running against Susan Collins. I think this ticks all of Macbeth's boxes
https://www.instagram.com/p/BrNnCe4HdYN … _copy_link
i just find it impossible to be bothered by any of it. who can care? western civiization isn't going down the tubes because 0.05% of the adult population dress up as furries, or whatever. so long as its between consenting adults, and everyone makes their own decisions, i just do not care. there are so many other issues in the world which should be drawing the real alarm.
i'm a little perturbed that jay has been stalking random dude's instagrams and can produce posts which are two years old. weird how the people most virulently opposed to these things are oddly fascinated with it, and expend a decent amount of time/effort on it. are all of you guys closeted, or what?
nobody who is getting laid / getting promoted / pursuing their own goals could possibly care about ANY of these issues, imho.
i'm a little perturbed that jay has been stalking random dude's instagrams and can produce posts which are two years old. weird how the people most virulently opposed to these things are oddly fascinated with it, and expend a decent amount of time/effort on it. are all of you guys closeted, or what?
nobody who is getting laid / getting promoted / pursuing their own goals could possibly care about ANY of these issues, imho.