Gun politics, firearms ownership, and US 2nd amendment discussion

2012-07-19 12:57:42

#226

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

ROGUEDD wrote:
eleven bravo wrote:
get it? "dead" wrong
Well, I'm sure some pyschos would get their rocks off from slaughtering American citizens, but a good portion of my family is, has been, or will be in the military. I'm with wpa on this.

think about it dude, do you think those same family members would hesitate to machine gun a mob of leftist hippies? no, i dont think so. same applies to little pricked rightwing survivalists

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 12:58:14

#227

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

too many people have this hollywood sense of the military

Last edited by eleven bravo (2012-07-19 12:58:23)

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 13:39:19

#228

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

eleven bravo wrote:
think about it dude, do you think those same family members would hesitate to machine gun a mob of leftist hippies? no, i dont think so. same applies to little pricked rightwing survivalists

Speaking from a Red State perspective, out of the very large number of current and former military I know here, not a single one of them would ever "machine-gun a hippie". Even including the more radical conservatives around here.

You're more likely to get a bunch of former hood rats and ghetto thugs to machine-gun a bunch of civilians, "just for fun". Look at Hitler's SA "Brown Shirts", or Saddam's internal security forces - predominantly recruited from angry, lower class young men, living in the ghettos. Leaders were the upper class, thugs were from the underclass.

2012-07-19 13:44:16

#229

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

speaking from an infantrymans persepctive, ive never ran into someone from a red state who wouldnt have loved to kill some pinko commie hippies if they were given the order. maybe cus you were in clintons military, maybe because i was in an infantry unit, but there is a genuine blood lust on the line.

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 14:41:28

#230

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

And that's why we don't just turn the Infantry Privates loose on the world without adult supervision.

Artillery and Engineer - yes, we truly enjoyed blowing shit up. As long as it's the right shit getting blown up.

2012-07-19 14:44:47

#231

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

its not privates who instill this attitude

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 14:45:32

#232

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

and really its not like junior nco's are much better than joe snuffy

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 15:57:50

#233

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

Then you were in shitty units, 11B.

As a rule, all the infantry units I knew personally were always ready for a fight, personally or professionally. But they were also disciplined enough to follow ROE and basic ethics, even when the highest ranking person around was a Sergeant E-5.

We did have one wanna-be thug squad, in Basic. But they straightened up okay, one their ringleader met with an unfortunate accident in the shower, and had to be dropped for medical reasons.

2012-07-19 16:19:12

#234

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

I think youre looking at the importance of the nco in an unrealistic light. has nothing to do with my unit, perhaps youve been lucky to have been in the most disciplined units in the army. when i was 17 I thought ncos were demi gods. that idea turned to shit as soon as i hit the real army. has nothing to do with my unit and i dont think i really appreciate that.

the quality of nco has steadily degraded over the last decade. ive witnessed this from multiple branches and mos's. ive spoken to people who were e-6's while they were in and were in class with me as veteran students and they were dumb as shit. Ive known soldiers who served in the from the mid 70's to being in iraq with me telling me how things were no different in that regard during his engineer days in 1970's where he would wake up with a heroin needle in his arm 5 minutes before pt formation. ive known national guardsmen and reservists who have been in for 20 years who were ate the fuck up. ive known A LOT of worthless ncos even before psy op. when i got to psy op, i was shocked at how much worse it was. also, while i was in psyop I learned how insignificant ranks e-1 through e-6 are in the scheme of things. psy op is officer heavy and you get privvy to a lot of shit. and dont get me started on dip shit worthless officers.

perhaps you were just the shining example. the outlier, the exception to the rule. You cant say that it was the older army with better ncos because thats nonsense. you cant say that it was my unit bvecause frankly, thats insulting. i wonder if your company produced two silver star recipients. i respect you and all but dude, that was an ignorant thing to say.

your view of the nco reminds of exactly the kind of shit that was indoctrinated into every soldier going through basic. up until i saw how the real army worked i would have agreed with you. out of curiosity when did you ets?

Last edited by eleven bravo (2012-07-19 16:25:10)

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 16:23:19

#235

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

I worked under maybe three NCOs that were actually worthy of respect. The rest were dogdoo that re-uped because they had nothing else going for them in life and/or wanted to powertrip their way into an early retirement.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-19 17:00:34

#236

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

Wasn't personal, 11B. I just have a special place in my bowels for your old division.

1CAV tried to kill me off more than a few times, through negligence, incompetence, and general asshattery.

3ID, 2ID, 2AD, 1/75, and 2/75 never seemed as intent on my death.

I've suffered under incompetent squad leaders.
I've also known some standout officers, and truly dedicated professional NCOs.
The standout NCOs, without exception, were all products of 75th Ranger Regiment (not just the 60 day tab school) and/or SF groups.
Assholes and type-AAA personalities, but the good ones were more dedicated to their profession than your average priest.

That's probably the key difference; If everyone around you is just doing their job, collecting a paycheck, and generally just doing barely enough not to get fired, 'you're gonna have a bad time'. If enough of your coworkers are working their profession or 'calling', it's going to be a different environment.

2012-07-19 17:09:35

#237

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

Jay wrote:
I worked under maybe three NCOs that were actually worthy of respect. The rest were dogdoo that re-uped because they had nothing else going for them in life and/or wanted to powertrip their way into an early retirement.

Reminds me of two very fat, very lazy, very shady E-7s we had in our S-3.
Did nothing but drive their busted HMMWV around Ft Hood, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and generally be a nuisance for any construction project we had going.
"retired on active duty" I think it was called - just waiting the clock out for a few more years until retirement

2012-07-19 17:12:49

#238

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

eleven bravo wrote:
I think youre looking at the importance of the nco in an unrealistic light.

your view of the nco reminds of exactly the kind of shit that was indoctrinated into every soldier going through basic. up until i saw how the real army worked i would have agreed with you. out of curiosity when did you ets?

My view of an NCO is slightly more tempered and realistic than the internal perceptions held by most of the E-7 through E-9 I know.

2012-07-19 17:17:39

#239

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

rdx-fx wrote:
Jay wrote:
I worked under maybe three NCOs that were actually worthy of respect. The rest were dogdoo that re-uped because they had nothing else going for them in life and/or wanted to powertrip their way into an early retirement.
Reminds me of two very fat, very lazy, very shady E-7s we had in our S-3.
Did nothing but drive their busted HMMWV around Ft Hood, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and generally be a nuisance for any construction project we had going.
"retired on active duty" I think it was called - just waiting the clock out for a few more years until retirement

When I was in basic and AIT the drill sergeants kept talking about not becoming a member of the E-4 mafia. When I actually got to my unit, I discovered that the biggest shammers were E-6s. My platoon sergeant and the section sergeants sat in the platoon office all day bullshitting or disappearing while making up busywork tasks for the one E-5 that would actually go down to the motor pool and get stuff done. It was pathetic. Once we got to Iraq, that mentality carried over. I swear if I ever have to interview anyone that was in and made the rank of E-6 their resume is going in the garbage.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-19 17:19:05

#240

Jaekus: I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose; +957|5393|Sydney

My 2 cents here, seeing as everyone else is...

It seems to me the premise on which the second amendment was founded no longer applies, and hasn't in a long time. In saying that, guns are a big part of US culture and they are not going away any time soon. People would feel their rights and freedoms would be taken away and I respect that. It's at the point now and has probably always been that if guns laws were considerably tightened up it would impact more upon the common citizen than it would a felon, so I would really hesitate to make it harder to get a gun in the US for this societal-psychological impact alone. It just makes sense that if all your criminals have easy access to firearms then it's actually a responsibility for the powers-that-be to allow common citizens access to equal means by which to protect and defend themselves.

However, I'm sure I would feel uneasy if all of a sudden gun ownership was opened up to the general population in Australia, and I know many more gun deaths (accidental, suicidal and homicidal) would increase, obviously. I would think that is in part because of what I like to call the "cocky rookie novelty factor" that makes people pretty irresponsible. You only have to look at the driving statistics to mirror this - young males (cocky) who get their licence (novelty) in a car too powerful for their ability (rookie) have more accidents than any other section of the populace. Imagine if those same guys had guns without their seniors teaching them how to be more responsible with them...

In a nutshell, what works in one country will not necessarily work as well in another, and vice versa.

2012-07-19 17:26:21

#241

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

Jay wrote:
rdx-fx wrote:
Jay wrote:
I worked under maybe three NCOs that were actually worthy of respect. The rest were dogdoo that re-uped because they had nothing else going for them in life and/or wanted to powertrip their way into an early retirement.
Reminds me of two very fat, very lazy, very shady E-7s we had in our S-3.
Did nothing but drive their busted HMMWV around Ft Hood, drink coffee, smoke cigarettes, and generally be a nuisance for any construction project we had going.
"retired on active duty" I think it was called - just waiting the clock out for a few more years until retirement
When I was in basic and AIT the drill sergeants kept talking about not becoming a member of the E-4 mafia. When I actually got to my unit, I discovered that the biggest shammers were E-6s. My platoon sergeant and the section sergeants sat in the platoon office all day bullshitting or disappearing while making up busywork tasks for the one E-5 that would actually go down to the motor pool and get stuff done. It was pathetic. Once we got to Iraq, that mentality carried over. I swear if I ever have to interview anyone that was in and made the rank of E-6 their resume is going in the garbage.

E-5

its so bad that soldiers are going straight from AIT to WLC (PLDC) as E-3's

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 17:26:48

#242

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

ate up soldiers. soldiers who crash their cars into mormon churches in utah.

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 17:26:52

#243

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

In a generation or two, US gun rights will be a moot point.

The increasing majority of the US population lives in urban areas, where they have no familiarity or real use for a firearm.

They don't use them themselves,
they don't understand why someone would have a legitimate use for one,
and their general perception of guns comes from TV and video games.

A Californian would have an easier time explaining the absolute necessity of a personally owned car to a New Yorker.

edit: and it will take less time to get rid of guns in the US, if the public face of gun ownership continues to be Redneck Randall, with an AR-15 in one hand and a beer in the other, with his Charles Heston autographed Bible nearby (unopened and unread).

Last edited by rdx-fx (2012-07-19 17:30:29)

2012-07-19 17:27:39

#244

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

new yorkers cant drive

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 17:30:28

#245

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

I drive better than youuuuuuuuuuu

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-19 17:31:36

#246

eleven bravo: Member; +1,399|5474|foggy bottom

fucking crazy quit sniffing glue

Tu Stultus Es

2012-07-19 17:33:09

#247

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5573|London, England

People in Texas and New Jersey can't drive. When I see NJ plates I get angry because I know they're going to do something assholeish.

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2012-07-19 17:42:38

#248

rdx-fx: ...; +955|6806

New Yorkers are too busy with everything but driving (coffee, bagel, newspaper, gesturing while talking, yelling at a bicycle)

Californians are in too much of a hurry

Montanans are towing too much crap behind an over-lifted turbo diesel truck

But Wisconsonites and Chicago FIBs are the worst... they're either drunk, distracted, or perpetually perplexed about how to drive in snow.
Every. Fucking. Year. " snow?! what is this? I don't even..."

2012-07-19 18:25:25

#249

Macbeth: Banned; +2,444|5800

Jay wrote:
People in Texas and New Jersey can't drive. When I see NJ plates I get angry because I know they're going to do something assholeish.

NYers are aggressive drivers and come to a full stop at a ezpass.

2012-07-20 02:42:46

#250

Dilbert_X: The X stands for; +1,813|6321|eXtreme to the maX

^ There are a lot of trash in the military and NY

Raimius wrote:
Do you get fined by the police department? (Seriously, I don't know about your local laws.)

In the UK and Aus, yes, if you leave your car running unattended you'll get fined, just as you'll lose your license if you leave your keys on top of your safe, leave guns or ammo unsecured etc.

In most communities there are:

People who will follow the law, because they're law-abiding

People who will follow the law if its convenient for them and depending on the likelihood of getting caught and the severity of punishment

People who are going to do what they want no matter what, until they're incarcerated or killed - because they're psycopathic, stupid, immature, former marines or whatever

If fruitcakes are going to close their minds to the existence of the last two groups and insist on 'freedoms' which are obviously going to have a social consequence then it proves they're stupid or have read too much Ayn Rand or both.

Fuck Israel

BF2S Forums Gun politics, firearms ownership, and US 2nd amendment discussion

ROGUEDD wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

Jay wrote:

eleven bravo wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jay wrote:

rdx-fx wrote:

Jay wrote:

Jay wrote:

Raimius wrote:

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