Would stop the flow of weapons into the criminals hands though. And who knows, in 50 years gun crime may be almost non-existent. Sorta like here in AU, and its only been what, 20 years?Jay wrote:
So responsible gun ownership means you have to pay more tax? Because that's all that is. It wouldn't do a damn thing to take guns out of the hands of criminals.Adams_BJ wrote:
Yes. I see you're starting to get the hang of responsible gun ownership.13rin wrote:
Or do you want federally regulated safes that one must acquire from the government or an approved government vendor?
So if someone has broken into your home you'd want to fiddle with a safe before being able to protect yourself? You're completely negating the primary purpose of a weapon. Again, its purpose is not to plink cans at a range.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
no, you only have to lock the safe when you're not home. Don't be stupid.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … /guns.htmlAsk a cop on the beat how criminals get guns and you're likely to hear this hard boiled response: "They steal them." But this street wisdom is wrong, according to one frustrated Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) agent who is tired of battling this popular misconception. An expert on crime gun patterns, ATF agent Jay Wachtel says that most guns used in crimes are not stolen out of private gun owners' homes and cars. "Stolen guns account for only about 10% to 15% of guns used in crimes," Wachtel said. Because when they want guns they want them immediately the wait is usually too long for a weapon to be stolen and find its way to a criminal.
---
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Actually, I have several for precisely that purpose.Jay wrote:
So if someone has broken into your home you'd want to fiddle with a safe before being able to protect yourself? You're completely negating the primary purpose of a weapon. Again, its purpose is not to plink cans at a range.
I also have a couple that are set up nicer for defensive use than the local cops' guns.
What do you base your confidence on? Are you assuming that most gun thefts are simple burglaries that happen to find a gun, or that the thief was intent on obtaining a gun? If it is the latter, I doubt your assumption is accurate. A lot of residential gun safes can be defeated with a crow bar and hammer in a matter of a couple minutes. If it was the former, it's possible, but I'd like to see some actually evidence.im confident in saying mandating storing weapons in locked containers (wall mounted or immovable) would negatively impact a criminals ability to get weapons. Remove the emotional "federally regulated safes from the government or approved government vendor" comment.
see up a few posts where I acknowledge straw purchases and unscrupulous dealers are also to blame
I'd like to see some evidence too, and I really can't make a conjecture on which one is more common.RAIMIUS wrote:
What do you base your confidence on? Are you assuming that most gun thefts are simple burglaries that happen to find a gun, or that the thief was intent on obtaining a gun? If it is the latter, I doubt your assumption is accurate. A lot of residential gun safes can be defeated with a crow bar and hammer in a matter of a couple minutes. If it was the former, it's possible, but I'd like to see some actually evidence.im confident in saying mandating storing weapons in locked containers (wall mounted or immovable) would negatively impact a criminals ability to get weapons. Remove the emotional "federally regulated safes from the government or approved government vendor" comment.
Unfortunately virtually no gun owners here want to legislate gun safes, so we can't tell if it would actually decrease gun crime. I don't get why some people are so fervently against some type of legislation. If you are a responsible gun owner, I would think you would want more people to be responsible so they don't paint you in a bad light.
I don't even own any weapons
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
If I steal an unlocked car, and use it to get away from a bank robbery and run down small children, is it the owner's fault for not locking his car? Do we force people to store their cars in a garage?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I'd like to see some evidence too, and I really can't make a conjecture on which one is more common.RAIMIUS wrote:
What do you base your confidence on? Are you assuming that most gun thefts are simple burglaries that happen to find a gun, or that the thief was intent on obtaining a gun? If it is the latter, I doubt your assumption is accurate. A lot of residential gun safes can be defeated with a crow bar and hammer in a matter of a couple minutes. If it was the former, it's possible, but I'd like to see some actually evidence.im confident in saying mandating storing weapons in locked containers (wall mounted or immovable) would negatively impact a criminals ability to get weapons. Remove the emotional "federally regulated safes from the government or approved government vendor" comment.
Unfortunately virtually no gun owners here want to legislate gun safes, so we can't tell if it would actually decrease gun crime. I don't get why some people are so fervently against some type of legislation. If you are a responsible gun owner, I would think you would want more people to be responsible so they don't paint you in a bad light.
Make X-meds a full member, for the sake of 15 year old anal gangbang porn watchers everywhere!
Seriously, we are talking about guns. Guns are used for one reason - putting projectiles down range. They were invented with one thing in mind - killing things. All this comparing guns with knives and cars and double ended dildos is irrelevant as their primary purpose is completely different to what a firearms is.
We are talking about responsible gun ownership, and proper storage of a weapon is just as important as not pointing it at people.
We are talking about responsible gun ownership, and proper storage of a weapon is just as important as not pointing it at people.
So create an education campaign regarding the merits of your ideas instead of arguing for more unenforceable laws.Adams_BJ wrote:
Seriously, we are talking about guns. Guns are used for one reason - putting projectiles down range. They were invented with one thing in mind - killing things. All this comparing guns with knives and cars and double ended dildos is irrelevant as their primary purpose is completely different to what a firearms is.
We are talking about responsible gun ownership, and proper storage of a weapon is just as important as not pointing it at people.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
What do you mean unenforceable? You buy a gun, register it, part of the registration process is you note down what model safe you have. Once the gun has been picked up, a general duties police officer and makes a stop by your house. Checks everything is in order (mounted securely, appropriate specifications for the type of firearm) and ticks it off, taking a whole of 5 minutes. Done. Over. Occasionally they may stop buy and check to see everything is still in order.
In the event of a firearms theft, the police come by (sorta like they'd already do, ya know?) and inspect the safe. If there it has obviously been broken into - all good let them continue on their investigation. If it hasn't, then obviously it was stored properly, and you receive a fine and points get taken off of your firearms licence (similar to a drivers licence demerit system)
It's not super complicated infringing on rights stuff.
In the event of a firearms theft, the police come by (sorta like they'd already do, ya know?) and inspect the safe. If there it has obviously been broken into - all good let them continue on their investigation. If it hasn't, then obviously it was stored properly, and you receive a fine and points get taken off of your firearms licence (similar to a drivers licence demerit system)
It's not super complicated infringing on rights stuff.
Yeah, we have this thing called the Bill of Rights as well as a bunch of case law which prevents police officers from just stopping by without a warrant. You're opening up homes to warrantless searches. Not gonna fly.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Yeah, people on probation must consent to random searches of their person and home.Jay wrote:
Yeah, we have this thing called the Bill of Rights as well as a bunch of case law which prevents police officers from just stopping by without a warrant. You're opening up homes to warrantless searches. Not gonna fly.
Couldn't you theoretically willingly waive your 4th amendment right specifically regarding gun safes in order to purchase a weapon?
Seriously Jay, are you actually in this conversation or are you just trying to refute posts?
Australia’s Extensive Firearms Registry is Potentially Aiding Gun ThievesAdams_BJ wrote:
Would stop the flow of weapons into the criminals hands though. And who knows, in 50 years gun crime may be almost non-existent. Sorta like here in AU, and its only been what, 20 years?
by Logan Priess on June 7, 2012
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/australi … %2F20%2F12
So we have got a case where a dedicated group of people, with a very exact plan on stealing stored weapons found on a registry (which isn't publicly accessible), vs daily theft of un-secure weapons via opportunistic thieves who probably weren't after the guns to start with.west-phoenix-az wrote:
Australia’s Extensive Firearms Registry is Potentially Aiding Gun ThievesAdams_BJ wrote:
Would stop the flow of weapons into the criminals hands though. And who knows, in 50 years gun crime may be almost non-existent. Sorta like here in AU, and its only been what, 20 years?
by Logan Priess on June 7, 2012
http://www.outdoorhub.com/news/australi … %2F20%2F12
Well I'm stumped, better make guns free for all with no accountability for the owners what-so-ever. Clearly it doesn't work as our gun crime is through the roof.
Great comparison there.
Last edited by Adams_BJ (2012-07-18 18:53:59)
thanks
Look, the more hoops you make people jump through, the less likely they are to do it. This doesn't mean we'll have less guns in society, just like meth being illegal doesn't stop meth production or use, it will just force it out of the open and turn a lot more people into criminals.KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
Yeah, people on probation must consent to random searches of their person and home.Jay wrote:
Yeah, we have this thing called the Bill of Rights as well as a bunch of case law which prevents police officers from just stopping by without a warrant. You're opening up homes to warrantless searches. Not gonna fly.
Couldn't you theoretically willingly waive your 4th amendment right specifically regarding gun safes in order to purchase a weapon?
Seriously Jay, are you actually in this conversation or are you just trying to refute posts?
Asking people to waive their fourth amendment rights in order to exercise their second amendment rights? Are you just trolling or did you actually think that was a real answer?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
what you have now doesnt work, where as the methods other countries are using (uk and au) clearly are. stop clinging on to a centuries old piece of paper that was written at a time when life was much different to what it is now. gun ownership shouldnt be a right it should be a priveledge. all these "hoops" havent hindered the other first world nations where they have been implemented. register your gun, have it safely secured and make it a legal requirement. its not that hard. add some accountability to the legal owner. it doesnt even become an issue to you unless it gets stolen in which case if you were abiding by the law you are cleared of any wrong doing.
What part of "shall not infringed upon" do you not understand? Do you hate the Constitution? What other amendments do you want to regulate more?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
No, I don't want to punish the law-abiding citizen. I want people to be responsible - and based on FACTS (which show the majority of guns used in crimes are straw-purchased and stolen), gun owners and sellers aren't doing enough to stop criminals from procuring weapons. I'm open to ideas too - but too often the deranged NRA-or-bust gun owners don't want to address any type of regulations or increased enforcement of existing laws because they think (erroneously) it is anti-gun.
Might as well do away with the 10th amendment too while you're at it. Bet you'd be for the axing the 24th too... Ya know, to keep the stupid people from voting.
Why not? A home is secure. But really if you mandate safes, you place an extra financial burden upon the gun owner. A financial burden that he may not be able to meet. Therefore, you are "infringing" upon his 2nd amendment.KJ wrote:
I don't think simply locking your house is good enough. I'd like to see some type of wall-mounted safes or lockable gun cabinets legislated. And I'd like to see a mandate to register your guns yearly, with a government-sponsored check in to make sure a gun owner has proper storage (but i'm not sure if that is feasible). How is requiring a gun owner to store it under lock and key punishing the gun owner?
Well, a gun locked in a safe is useless to an owner when a thief comes to break and steal the gun. You see, the thief intentionally targeted this man because he obtained a list of people who own firearms (due to some registry) or he followed him home after that responsible citizen showed up to brandish his firearm to the powers that be.
Er... Ya just did. Tut tut.KJ wrote:
To answer your question, yes I own insurance. I do it for peace of mind - the same reason I've said people carry concealed weapons for. But when someone challenges why I own insurance, I don't get all emotional and say, "well what if someone comes and runs me over in their car and I need to get surgery? I'd rather have insurance and not need it than have no insurance. Tut tut!"
What? Great definition.Adams_BJ wrote:
Not it isn't.13rin wrote:
But define 'locked up'. As far as I'm concerned if my home is locked, and my firearm is inside it.... Then yes, my gun is locked up.
It's behind a lock and key not easily accessible.
Yea, well Dill lives in the AU so I'd expect that type of retardary. The punish the victim mentality. Ghey. So if a Woman is at a nightclub and dressed sexily, and get's raped... Do the AU gestapos give her a ticket for dressing to hot and making the rapist randy?BJ wrote:
Yes. Here in AU, you are required to keep your firearm in an approved safe. If someone steals your firearm, you will be reprimanded for not having your firearm safely stored. It takes 2 seconds to lock it up, and THAT is peace of mind. Knowing your child isn't going to shoot themselves, their sibling, their next door neighbour or even yourself. Knowing that someone breaking into your house isn't going to take it and use it in a crime (that's where criminals get their guns, doncha know?) Do you actually believe that having your house locked is good enough? Because breaking into a house is so hard..
Breaking into a house is so hard? Ha... Come to the South and try it in Wakulla County.
As to kids and guns? Education, not isolation is the answer. My kid isn't a moron and knows what a firearm will do. He has since a very early age. I've taught him properly and he respects them. I don't need to lock them up. Hell, look at the US back 30 years ago. High school students had rifles sitting on gun racks installed in their pickup trucks, parked at school. Total carnage too right? Nowadays a kid gets expelled for having a blackpowder replica in the trunk of his car because he's going to a civil war reenactment. Fucking insanity.
Why not? While we're at it we should lock up anything that has ever been used as a weapon. Need a pretty large safe though. Perhaps one the size of a house :winkBJ wrote:
You are actually using this argument? Hell, why not lock up golf clubs too.13rin wrote:
How about if he take a knife? Should we lock those up too?
See the 2nd amendment reference made to KJ above.BJ wrote:
Yes. I see you're starting to get the hang of responsible gun ownership.13rin wrote:
Or do you want federally regulated safes that one must acquire from the government or an approved government vendor?
O'ryl? Have fun:Adams_BJ wrote:
Would stop the flow of weapons into the criminals hands though. And who knows, in 50 years gun crime may be almost non-existent. Sorta like here in AU, and its only been what, 20 years?
http://www.ssaa.org.au/capital-news/200 … uyback.pdf
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
In Australia? Yes, it is totally the owner's fault.ROGUEDD wrote:
If I steal an unlocked car, and use it to get away from a bank robbery and run down small children, is it the owner's fault for not locking his car? Do we force people to store their cars in a garage?KEN-JENNINGS wrote:
I'd like to see some evidence too, and I really can't make a conjecture on which one is more common.RAIMIUS wrote:
What do you base your confidence on? Are you assuming that most gun thefts are simple burglaries that happen to find a gun, or that the thief was intent on obtaining a gun? If it is the latter, I doubt your assumption is accurate. A lot of residential gun safes can be defeated with a crow bar and hammer in a matter of a couple minutes. If it was the former, it's possible, but I'd like to see some actually evidence.
Unfortunately virtually no gun owners here want to legislate gun safes, so we can't tell if it would actually decrease gun crime. I don't get why some people are so fervently against some type of legislation. If you are a responsible gun owner, I would think you would want more people to be responsible so they don't paint you in a bad light.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.
For the last time, gun crime in the US is not nearly the epidemic you foreigners think it is. Crimes of all types (except drugs) have been in steady decline since 1992. If you don't like our laws or the way we live, don't live here. It's as simple as that. Do you hear any of us nattering on about how Australians should run their country?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Hence the mentality that illustrates the difference between US and them. Clinging on to a centuries old piece of paper... Rich.Adams_BJ wrote:
what you have now doesnt work, where as the methods other countries are using (uk and au) clearly are. stop clinging on to a centuries old piece of paper that was written at a time when life was much different to what it is now. gun ownership shouldnt be a right it should be a priveledge. all these "hoops" havent hindered the other first world nations where they have been implemented. register your gun, have it safely secured and make it a legal requirement. its not that hard. add some accountability to the legal owner. it doesnt even become an issue to you unless it gets stolen in which case if you were abiding by the law you are cleared of any wrong doing.
I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.