Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
will drink to that, but still. an ets can theoretically work but there is only one way to find out.

and shelving it for three years to come up before the next election is not it.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
Where I disagree is that a tax has no theoretical cap. Where the ETS does. If a company is making mega profits, it doesnt care if it has to pay some extra tax. A cap and trade system limits how much CO2 it is allowed to produce. Besides an ETS will act like a carbon tax, once price increases trickle down through the system.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
But:
ETS only applies to Australian companies. Its only going to be applied to large companies and they will mostly be industrials which have very little choice in their energy source.
It will be at the whim of govt, at least to start with.

It won't affect consumer behaviour for a good while, if at all. Will aircraft and vehicle fuel be taxed for example? Farm fuel use on energy intensive crops or fuel used for imported foods?

A tax is very quick and easy to adjust or rebalance, an ETS would take years at a time to alter - probably beyond the ability of the 3 year electoral cycle to deal with, its too hard to even bring in at all.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2010-05-01 05:02:32)

Fuck Israel
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
Its the top 1000 polluting companies to my knowledge. I dont see why its only Australian companies, it would probably be companies working in Asutralia as well.

Wont effect consumer behaviour for a while, not sure companies seem to be able to hike up prices very quickly when they want, look at interest rate rises etc. The principle isnt that certain things are taxed in an ETS. Its more that a company must buy permits to pollute. If they pollute more then they have to buy more permits . Aircraft of Fuel being taxed isnt really relevant to it.

Even Turnbull said that a market based mechanism for CO2 pollution control is the only way to go. I'd say he is right.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
A market based solution is the only way, but I think a ground up rather than top down system would work better.
I'd better read up on the ETS I guess, still better to get the ball rolling than wait another three years at least.
Fuck Israel
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
I remember now....

From wiki

Free permits to emissions-intensive, trade-exposed businesses - such as aluminium producers, iron and steel makers, petrol refiners and LNG producers, initially totaling 25% to 33% of permits and rising to 45% by 2020.

Gross over-compensation of coal fired electricity generators.

Seems somewhat pointless tilting the table against carbon emissions then tilting it right back again.
A really free market, created by a carbon tax - which starts very low but rises steadily - seems the simple, obvious and govt interference free solution.
Fuck Israel
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
Yeah its not a perfect system, the system that Ross Garnaut proposed was much better than the shitty system that the politicians modified to get to senate. This system resulted in a mere 5% decrease in CO2 and was locked in till 2020 ( from memory). But in many ways it was better than nothing. If a better system comes out of this in 3 years I will be happy, in the interim a carbon tax, as proposed by Garnaut as an interim measure is also a good idea for the short term.

I am not an economic expert, but I dont see how a carbon tax is creates a really free market. It doesnt put a cap on CO2 though , and thats why I am not too keen on it.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
It doesn't put a cap on CO2, but its straightforward to ramp up slowly and develop a response curve, factor in population growth and you're done (apart from the effect on the economy).
It can also be adjusted very quickly in response to oil price blips for example.
Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
This system resulted in a mere 5% decrease in CO2 and was locked in till 2020 ( from memory).
I would remind you this represents, per capita, a cut in emissions to two thirds of what they would otherwise be.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
thraSK
Best ___ in Aus
+57|6204
It's just not good enough, in my opinion
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland

Spark wrote:

This system resulted in a mere 5% decrease in CO2 and was locked in till 2020 ( from memory).
I would remind you this represents, per capita, a cut in emissions to two thirds of what they would otherwise be.
Thats fine, I just wanted more... Its better than nothing, which is what we are getting now.

Last edited by Burwhale (2010-05-01 16:16:02)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS

thraSK wrote:

It's just not good enough, in my opinion
personally a scheme with a target is better. i would have set a harder target - 15% - but 5% is better than 0% (which is what the americans propose) and like minus 30% which is where we're currently going.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
Millions of Australians are set to reap higher retirement savings, funded by a tax on miners, as the Federal Government makes major changes to the country's superannuation system.

The Federal Government today revealed in its much-anticipated response to the Henry tax review that it will lift compulsory superannuation contributions from 9 to 12 per cent by 2020.

The Government's move to increase compulsory superannuation goes against the Henry review recommendations, which instead preferred changing the rate of tax on compulsory contributions to make the system more equitable.

Key points of today's announcement include:

    * Lifting compulsory superannuation from 9 to 12 per cent by 2019-20
    * More Government payments for low-income workers into their superannuation
    * Compulsory super payments for those over 70 and concessions on contributions for those over 50
    * A reduction in company tax from 30 to 28 per cent by 2015
    * Small business to benefit from company tax cut from 2012
    * Other write-off concessions for small business
    * Miners to be hit with a 40 per cent tax on above normal profits
    * An infrastructure fund to be paid to the states each year to start at $700 million in 2012

Unveiling the Government's response, Treasurer Wayne Swan described the announced changes as historic.

"These are very big steps in a decade-long process of reform," he said.

"We've chosen to build everyone up rather than rearrange the tax concessions."

The country's mining boom will be used to help fund the superannuation overhaul with the resources sector to be slugged with a 40 per cent tax on profits.

Mr Swan warned the Opposition that if they blocked the tax on mining profits they would be blocking the increase in compulsory superannuation.

"This is only doable if it can be funded," he said.

"There are big gains to come from these reforms we have announced today."

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said the superannuation increase would deliver more security for people as they age.

"This plan means that working families of the future will have to worry less about their retirement," he said.

The increase in compulsory superannuation is part of several changes the Government will implement to the system in an effort to prepare the country for the costs of a growing and ageing population.

While the mining industry is set for pain, small businesses will make gains through a company tax reduction, a cut in red tape and other concessions.

But the Government is yet to reveal how it may act on other changes that were expected, such as optional tax returns and reforms to family benefit payments.

Changes 'fully funded'

The Government says its changes are fully funded over the next four years and will not breach its promise to keep taxes below 23.6 per cent of GDP.

With concerns that low-income earners will not have enough to retire on, the Federal Government will provide a payment of up to $500 annually for those earning under $37,000 on top of the existing co-contribution as a way to offset the tax paid on contributions.

Workers over 50 who have superannuation under $500,000 will be able to top it up by $50,000 a year in concessional contributions.

Those over 70 who are still working will now receive compulsory superannuation contributions until they are 75.

Over 8 million Australians are expected to benefit from the changes which will cost about $2.4 billion over the next four years.

The Government says the changes will give a worker who is aged 30 over $100,000 in extra superannuation by the time they retire.

And it expects that a woman aged 30 who may leave the workforce to have children will still be almost $80,000 better off.

The changes will put $85 billion into the country's national savings over the next 10 years, some of which will be pumped back into the economy to be used on infrastructure.

The Federal Government is keen to increase the national savings and add to the $1 trillion already saved to avoid a reliance on overseas borrowing in the wake of the financial crisis.

While superannuation is set for an overhaul, the Government has rejected several other more contentious recommendations of the review, which was calling for a major shake-up of the tax system.

Mr Swan rejected assertions the Government had a lack of political will.

"I completely and utterly repudiate that assertion," he said.

Some recommendations that the Government will not be making include:

    * Replacing state stamp duties on homes with a national land tax
    * Removing tax concessions on the not-for-profit sector
    * Imposing a flat tax on all alcohol
    * Lifting the age that workers receive super payouts to the pension age
    * Restoring indexation of the fuel tax
    * Removing the Medicare levy
    * Reducing the capital gains tax discount
    * Lower indexation of the aged pension
    * Changes to the dividend imputation

The Government announced last week it would increase taxes on cigarettes by 25 per cent.

With some changes to be implemented soon and others ruled out completely, it remains to be seen what further action the Government may take on other measures in the lead-up to the next election.

The Government has indicated that today's announcements are only a "first step" with more to come that will make the personal income tax system simpler and fairer.

Optional tax returns had been mooted as well as a congestion tax for drivers
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
I think theres some points to like about the Henry rev. As usual with the Rudd govt , he could have gone further, but doesnt want to hurt anyones feelings so it falls a bit short. possibly good on the whole. I will wait till I have heard a bit more about it before I say any more. 40% tax on miners on profits over expected. Not sure how they determine this... More to come, I'm sure.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
yeah, i reckon it should've gone further
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
Just want to repeat something here. This thread has got to be one of the best I have ever been part of on this site, No flaming, cool heads, informed chat. Big thanks to all the contributors, lets hope it keeps going.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX

Burwhale wrote:

I think theres some points to like about the Henry rev. As usual with the Rudd govt , he could have gone further, but doesnt want to hurt anyones feelings so it falls a bit short. possibly good on the whole. I will wait till I have heard a bit more about it before I say any more. 40% tax on miners on profits over expected. Not sure how they determine this... More to come, I'm sure.
I've been wondering how miners should be taxed.
The ground doesn't belong to them, the ore/coal is going to run out pretty quick, its not as if they are creating or adding value in any way.
At the same time they are making mega-profits and driving up the dollar which makes life harder for practically everyone else.
Fuck Israel
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
that's true but they have injected a staggering amount of wealth into the economy in the last two decades.

i mean - people say the australian economy is a one-trick horse, and it is - it's just that our trick, selling iron ore to china, is better than everyone's else's tricks.

edit - just out of interest, who else is reading this thread?

Last edited by Spark (2010-05-02 00:25:15)

The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Burwhale
Save the BlobFish!
+136|6444|Brisneyland
Interestingly enough , mining isnt the biggest part of the economy, that would be the service industry. Mining is the biggest export, no doubt. Just a fun fact I guess.
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6896|Canberra, AUS
q&a

nick minchin had me in stitches. especially with his mentioning of climategate and the reaction following.

and then the smoking line
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6886|NT, like Mick Dundee

Spark wrote:

just out of interest, who else is reading this thread?
Me.


One of the few though.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
KuSTaV
noice
+947|6733|Gold Coast

Spark wrote:

edit - just out of interest, who else is reading this thread?
I browse occasionally, although I dont really post because I'm not informed enough to discuss these matters as they dont really concern/bother me.... just like the rest of D&ST.
Interesting to read over though.
noice                                                                                                        https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/26774/awsmsanta.png
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5400|Sydney
I like this thread.

I have my political opinions, sure, but I'm keen to listen to those who have opinions who differ to mine as they always have something to offer.
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6327|eXtreme to the maX
I'm not really so interested in Aus politics that I want to do much more than skim the surface TBH.
Fuck Israel
Jaekus
I'm the matchstick that you'll never lose
+957|5400|Sydney
Yeah same. I'm not very knowledgeable about politics tbh, but I like having a discussion about current issues. Most often I'll learn something.

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