BF2S Forums Iraq

atlvolunteer wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

The question at hand is wether Iraq will ever become a stable democracy, because that's when the US forces could leave. Personally, I doubt that will happen any time soon. As a lot of people here have already said, you cannot force people to be good democrats ( sic ). Democratic traditions have to develop, they need time to grow. Most of the people in Iraq have been living either under Saddam's dictatorship or under tribal rule for decades. They are not used to democracy. Voting is one thing. Everybody can do that. But really living a modern day democracy after all the Iraqis have been through the last decades ? No way. That will take some time.

Iraq had its first free parlamentary election in december of last year. But do they have a working government ? nope. The various tribes and ethnic groups are still fighting for political power in that country.

The US can't leave until public order is restored, and people can walk the streets safely without having to fear a suicide bomber ripping them to pieces. Considering Al'Quaeda and other insurgent acitvities, I wonder what you all think when the US will be able to finally leave. 2 years, 5 years, 10 years ?

Yeah, think about how long it took to rebuild Germany and Japan after WWII, and:
1. we didn't have to worry about insurgents
2. Germany at least had had a democracy before the Nazis gained control (were voted into power) (I don't know what kind of gov't Japan had before/during WWII)

You bring up an interesting point. Democracy is one thing, but having the right people in it is another. As you have said, Hitler was voted into power. Although he was taking advantage of the situation after WWI and how germans back then felt about it, it was still a democratic election.
The current President of Iran was also voted into office through a democratic election.

The bottom line is, who knows what might happen if people get to vote in a democratic election ?

You might end up with a government controlled by people that are worse than those you just removed forcibly. It happened in germany after WWI, it happened in Iran. It could happen in Iraq.

In the end, it is not about the system of government. It is about the people living in it and about those who lead them, wether they are democrats, monarchs or dictators.

Freedom, tolerance, respect for others, the ability to keep an open mind, those are values that promote peace throughout the world, not any specific form of government.

History has proven though, that a democracy is the best base for a free, tolerant and peaceful society.
IMHO, at least...;)

So the question is: Are Iraqis ready for that ? Do they have what it takes to become a successful democracy ?

Marconius wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

Marconius wrote:

Sure, but the rest of his administration is on there. All of the actions he's been taking have coincided with what the PNAC dictates, so there you go.

And now that you know all this, you are doing what exactly to make a change? If you believe you are being lied to, mislead, and bullshitted, what exactly are you doing to make sure it doesn't happen again?

Matter of fact, to everyone that hates W (I dislike, hate is too strong of a word), what are you doing to change it? Sitting at the local starbucks with the rest of the hippies, talking about how bad things are, while refusing to do anything to change the climate you live in? Or do you merely spit talking points amongst your friends to feel intellectually elite?

Moveon.org drones unite! Keep spouting the same bullshit rhetoric. You all work for the same political party. The only diference is the animal you bow down to.

I've done what I can legally.  I've voted, I've written to my governor, to my senator, to our house reps.  I've been arrested in anti-Bush/anti-war protests to at least get my voice heard.  I've done everything short of hopping the White House fence and running towards the place screaming my head off in absolute rage (we all know how that goes).  I'm keeping informed of all the events and am looking towards this November, helping to get the rest of Americans informed of the proper issues rather than just doing a whole lot of knee-jerk voting when the time comes.

"Anyone is allowed to believe in anything they want, as LONG as it is not forced onto others or used as a mass organizational rally point to serve another form of agenda."

This the right thread?

Going to keep hindering the current debates with your out of context and irrelevant posts, wannabe?

well let's not start flaming here, don't really know what wannabe was trying to get at up there.  But stupid posts usually kill decent threads
so mac and wanna your on notice and I'm not an admin

Last edited by cpt.fass1 (2006-04-19 15:27:24)

IronFerret wrote:

have you guys watch or read any of the following dvds or websites.. most of those dont necessary have a liberal agenda, but they shure present both faces of the conflic.. something that i cant see that much on cnn.

BattleGround - 21 Days on the Empire's Edge (dvd)
Occupation: Dreamland (dvd)
http://electroniciraq.net/
http://www.guerrillanews.com/

we have lots of problems arround here so aint an anti-iraq fan... neverthless i have check this stuff i dont like to make my ideas of what i heard... anyway, i cant call myself and iraq expert not even close but what i havent found (i have search for it) its like HOW?.. I mean US claim is bringing democracy to Iraq but other than militar intervention havent seen, read or heard like and startegy.. educational programs, civil programs, social programs.. so how do you expect to change their way of life and think. just like having the army there... doesnt make sence to me.  what are you gonna do? left iraq and say ok bye bye remember dont chose a tyran-fundamentalist president again.

there aint a single documentary/movie you could see that would do the situation justice

B.Schuss wrote:

well, if you pull out now you'd leave the country in chaos. No effective policing, no public safety, no working government. A dream come true for the insurgents.

The problem with democracy is of course that you cannot force it upon people. Normally, it would take generations for a working democracy to develop. Creating one from scratch is nearly impossible, especially with tensions between the various ethnic groups running as high as they do.

It might take ten years or more to establish a working democracy in Iraq, it might never happen. Maybe the region just ain't ready for it yet. Time will tell.

Still, you have to finish what you started. Whatever your feelings about the initial motivation for going to Iraq were in the first place, now you are in. You cannot turn back the time.

Democracy is a funny thing though. Once you give people the choice, who knows who they are going to vote for ? Remember, the current Pres. of Iran was also put into office through a democratic election.

i still dont belive that the people like him though
wait second thought
they are brain washed just like the North Koreans into thinking that EVERYTHING is the US and Bushs fault
aka the poverty in NK and the Isreals "contaiminating" the middle east

Capt. Foley wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

well, if you pull out now you'd leave the country in chaos. No effective policing, no public safety, no working government. A dream come true for the insurgents.

The problem with democracy is of course that you cannot force it upon people. Normally, it would take generations for a working democracy to develop. Creating one from scratch is nearly impossible, especially with tensions between the various ethnic groups running as high as they do.

It might take ten years or more to establish a working democracy in Iraq, it might never happen. Maybe the region just ain't ready for it yet. Time will tell.

Still, you have to finish what you started. Whatever your feelings about the initial motivation for going to Iraq were in the first place, now you are in. You cannot turn back the time.

Democracy is a funny thing though. Once you give people the choice, who knows who they are going to vote for ? Remember, the current Pres. of Iran was also put into office through a democratic election.

i still dont belive that the people like him though
wait second thought
they are brain washed just like the North Koreans into thinking that EVERYTHING is the US and Bushs fault
aka the poverty in NK and the Isreals "contaiminating" the middle east

well,  just by looking at these forums, I could conclude, that a lot of americans don't like Bush and also didn't vote for him. But he is in office nonetheless...

and maybe everyone of them was brainwashed to think that Iraq was to blame for 09/11 and muslims are the cause for everything bad happening in the world. After all, all of those "towel heads" are just a bunch of terrorists anyway...

see the irony here...?

Spark wrote:

75% (or something) Americans didn't vote for him.

well, unfortunately, we cannot look into the hearts and minds of those americans who chose not to vote at all in the last election, thus wasting their only opportunity to make their voices heard politically.

sad, really, when you think about it. Your country goes to great lengths to promote democracy throughout the world, but a lot of your own citizens don't seem to find the concept very appealing themselves...

Does anyone here really think that Iraq is going to be able to suport itself? In my eyes they is a huge cultural devid from our culture to there's.

Spark wrote:

75% (or something) Americans didn't vote for him.

No, the last election was pretty well split 49% to 51% for Bush, but that is electoral votes.  However, both of the last elections, when looking at popular vote (just straight vote count) Bush lost the first election, and I'm pretty sure the second as well.  This is one reason many want to remove the electoral college and use of electoral votes for presidential voting purposes.

atlvolunteer wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

Spark wrote:

75% (or something) Americans didn't vote for him.

No, the last election was pretty well split 49% to 51% for Bush, but that is electoral votes.  However, both of the last elections, when looking at popular vote (just straight vote count) Bush lost the first election, and I'm pretty sure the second as well.  This is one reason many want to remove the electoral college and use of electoral votes for presidential voting purposes.

The problem with removing the electoral college is that candidates could just concentrate their campaigning in urban areas and ignore the more rural.  Who would give a shit about some of the midwest states?  They don't have that high of a population, but they have just as much say as any other state.

They already get ignored.  Due to their very small populations, the number of electoral votes those states carry isn't worth much anyway.

Also, it makes other votes mean nothing.  My situation is a perfect example.  Utah is one of 3-4 states where Bush still has fairly high approval ratings.  This is one of the reddest of red states.  As such, if I vote for a Democratic president, my vote means nothing.  Utah's electoral votes have never gone to a Democratic presidential candidate within my lifetime.  This has done two things.

1. Made my vote worthless.

2. Made candidates completely ignore this state because it is a lock for Repubs.

Last edited by Agent_Dung_Bomb (2006-04-26 08:19:01)

Yes we should pull out, let them get on with it.