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Poll

Should we pull out of Iraq

Right now14%14% - 20
Yes13%13% - 19
No wait until Iraq can support themselfs71%71% - 98
Total: 137
2006-04-18 12:37:29
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6923|San Francisco
War is not determined by "If" statements.  War cannot be carried out under assumptions.  The "facts" that were spread around our country about al Qaeda, Saddam and WMDs were just mixed messages to lure people into a nationalist war State using 9/11 as the fulcrum to do so.  Just read the PNAC report...control of the Middle East is their ultimate goal.

Bush was ready to paint military planes with the UN colors and fly them through the NFZ to force Saddam into a war since he Knew that he had no basis with the WMD argument after the inspectors found nothing.
http://www.channel4.com/news/special-re … sp?id=1661
2006-04-18 12:41:17
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6965|Salt Lake City

kkolodsick wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

There is genocide all over the world and it is terrible, but we cannot police the entire planet.  The Iraq situation at the time posed a potential threat the safety of this country and had to be dealt with.
oh please. What threat exactly did the country of Iraq pose to the safety of the US ? They were under UN sanctions, and even if they had the capabilities to develop WMD's, they did not have and would never have had the means to successfully attack the US. No launching systems, no ICBM's. No submarines, no bombers.
US and british satellites were constantly monitoring the surface.
Saddam would not have been able to move an inch without you guys knowing it.

There was a multitude of reasons for the US to go into Iraq, but fear of an attack by that country sure wasn't one of them.

Personally, I think it was a strategical decision influenced by 09/11. But that's just me.
If you took the time to actually read my post you would see why/how Iraq posed a threat.  But since you didn't here we go again:

Many of the major intelligence agencies in the world agreed that Iraq had WMD or the capability to produce.  FACT
Saddam didn't like us much.  FACT
This one is a bit murky:  He didn't like us but also didn't have the means to attack us directly, but hmmmm who else doesn't like us and was able to attack our country?  The evidence of a relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is contradictory but either way.  If Al Qaeda came to Iraq and wanted the weapons don't you think Saddam would give them up if it were to attack us?  Not a fear of a direct attack but of Iraq helping someone attack us. 

Of course it was strategical...all war is.
So instead of working more diligently on shutting down Al Qaeda and capturing Binladen we attack a soveriegn nation, who at that point in time, had no WMDs to supply to anyone.  Boy, that's really strategic.
2006-04-18 12:48:55
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6873

Marconius wrote:

*sigh*
Any government that Iraq sets up will turn into a theocracy no matter what...that's just the way it's been there for the past 2000 years or so.  Tribal religious sects will not fare well underneath a representation of democracy that's only 200 years old.  Iraq will inevitably have to go through a civil war in order to stabilize itself, just as we Americans had to back in the 1860s, albeit for different reasons.

When Saddam was in power, Iraq was stable.  The dictatorship was able to keep such extreme religious sects at bay with one another, rather than constantly trying to initiate compromise between them all.  Now it's just going to be a massive power grab where the strongest and most passionate force will be the victor.  It reminds me of Tom Clancy's "Politika" scenario...
I disagree.  Up intul the time of our invasion, Iraq (along with Egypty) was the center for secular arab government.  As long as Iranian influence is expelled I feel strongly that Iraq will once again become a secular state.
2006-04-18 13:04:15
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895
Agent_Dung_Bomb:

You are correct at that point in time they didn't have WMD's.  But as earlier stated, many intelligence agencies throughout the world said there were. 

You and I have the ability to sit and wait until the end and monday morning quarterback it.  The President doesn't and has to make hard decisions with the information at hand. 

If GWB had the information that we have now he probably wouldn't have invaded.  If he did, then I would agree with you 100% about it being wrong.
2006-04-18 13:07:58
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6873

kkolodsick wrote:

If GWB had the information that we have now he probably wouldn't have invaded.
I hope you honestly dont believe that.
2006-04-18 13:12:50
Agent_Dung_Bomb
Member
+302|6965|Salt Lake City

kkolodsick wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb:

You are correct at that point in time they didn't have WMD's.  But as earlier stated, many intelligence agencies throughout the world said there were. 

You and I have the ability to sit and wait until the end and monday morning quarterback it.  The President doesn't and has to make hard decisions with the information at hand. 

If GWB had the information that we have now he probably wouldn't have invaded.  If he did, then I would agree with you 100% about it being wrong.
That is irrelavent.  The weapons inspectors had found nothing, and were still looking when we kicked them out and went in.  Evidence has also emerged that GWB had plans to go in, regardless of whether WMDs were found or not.

This isn't a Monday morning quarterback thing where we can look at it from the sidelines and after the fact.  The information showing up now clearly shows that going in was going to happen regardless of whether WMDs were there or not, and information, intelligence, and excuses were going to be modeled to fit whatever would seemingly work once we got there.
2006-04-18 13:24:59
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

Agent_Dung_Bomb wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

Agent_Dung_Bomb:

You are correct at that point in time they didn't have WMD's.  But as earlier stated, many intelligence agencies throughout the world said there were. 

You and I have the ability to sit and wait until the end and monday morning quarterback it.  The President doesn't and has to make hard decisions with the information at hand. 

If GWB had the information that we have now he probably wouldn't have invaded.  If he did, then I would agree with you 100% about it being wrong.
That is irrelavent.  The weapons inspectors had found nothing, and were still looking when we kicked them out and went in.  Evidence has also emerged that GWB had plans to go in, regardless of whether WMDs were found or not.

This isn't a Monday morning quarterback thing where we can look at it from the sidelines and after the fact.  The information showing up now clearly shows that going in was going to happen regardless of whether WMDs were there or not, and information, intelligence, and excuses were going to be modeled to fit whatever would seemingly work once we got there.
Wait a minute, are you talking about the weapons inspectors that weren't allowed to go where THEY wanted?  Oh yeah right, their information must be very accurate since they got to see everything...come on man be serious.

If you are talking about plans to invade Iraq, which I assume you are, the military has plans, ie the strategic plan not the desire to, to attach many different countries in the event that we must.  It doesn't mean that anyone for sure wanted to attach any individual country.  GWB may have been hell bent on attacking Iraq but not from any evidence I've seen.
2006-04-18 13:26:09
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

If GWB had the information that we have now he probably wouldn't have invaded.
I hope you honestly dont believe that.
Can't be certain either way slinger just like you can't be certain that he would have.  Right?
2006-04-18 13:27:28
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6873
we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
2006-04-18 13:38:32
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't.  Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?
2006-04-18 13:43:38
R3v0LuT!oN
Member
+22|6895|United States

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't.  Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?
Do you really believe that he's a good christian man? 

And who says evangelical christians are by definition good people - don't most of them believe that everyone who doesn't agree with them is going to burn in hell for all eternity??
2006-04-18 13:43:43
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6873

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't.  Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?
I already pretty much figured you out
the fact that he is christian has nothing to do with his decision to invade iraq(or maybe it does)  WMD were the number one reason that bush gave the american people and the world for the invasion of iraq.  But the search was called off within a year of control.  Now,  Why would you give up looking if that was the main reason we were in there in the first place.


Dont want you to think that I support removal of american forces in country.  As a matter of fact I believe we should increase troop strength.

Last edited by GunSlinger OIF II (2006-04-18 13:44:26)

2006-04-18 13:46:59
motherdear
Member
+25|6880|Denmark/Minnesota (depends)
well i have seen a few dokumentaries of the war iraq (real life) and in one of them they follow an american combat squad that end up in bagdad. when they go through the city they have gotten a tip about the city's biggets hospital, when they get there they find about 200 ak 47's 50 rpg's and about 500 handgrenadeds, when they go outside they find a long truck (12m) in the truck they find 4 rockets that look a bit like a scud but aren't. these rockets where capable of traveling from bagdad to northern norway, each of these rockets could have been armed with biological weapons within an hour and afterwards been used to take out a city the size of london. saddam also had the structures to use these rockets (leftover buildings from the golfwar).

i think bush did the right thing when he invaded iraq and stuff, but i can't respect that he had gotten information (there is a videotape of a conference where they actuaclly say it) about new orleans, and afterwards he denides to have had any knowledge of that the new orleans disaster could happen.
2006-04-18 13:48:40
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

R3v0LuT!oN wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

we gave up the search for WMD less than a year after the invasion.
I don't know about the timing of stopping so I have to take your word on it but it is because there were none there, I'm not arguing that there weren't.  Do you honestly believe that GWB, like him or not, a Christian man that starts every day on his knees, would send our men/women to Iraq to die for no reason?

Really believe that?
Do you really believe that he's a good christian man? 

And who says evangelical christians are by definition good people - don't most of them believe that everyone who doesn't agree with them is going to burn in hell for all eternity??
Whoa there, as a Christian by definition I'm bad, that is why I need Jesus.  What I am saying is that as a Christian with a set of morals defined by the bible, one shouldn't/wouldn't send people to die for ones own selfish reasons.  Burning in hell is Gods decision not mine.  By definition a Christian would believe that non Christians will not be spending time in Heaven.

I'm not judging any non Christians, by no means.
2006-04-18 14:00:49
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6891|USA

motherdear wrote:

well i have seen a few dokumentaries of the war iraq (real life) and in one of them they follow an american combat squad that end up in bagdad. when they go through the city they have gotten a tip about the city's biggets hospital, when they get there they find about 200 ak 47's 50 rpg's and about 500 handgrenadeds, when they go outside they find a long truck (12m) in the truck they find 4 rockets that look a bit like a scud but aren't. these rockets where capable of traveling from bagdad to northern norway, each of these rockets could have been armed with biological weapons within an hour and afterwards been used to take out a city the size of london. saddam also had the structures to use these rockets (leftover buildings from the golfwar).

i think bush did the right thing when he invaded iraq and stuff, but i can't respect that he had gotten information (there is a videotape of a conference where they actuaclly say it) about new orleans, and afterwards he denides to have had any knowledge of that the new orleans disaster could happen.
Hmmm...

So you are stating that a squad of soldiers found WMD's in Iraq?

Sounds that way. Rockets that could be armed that quickly. Please provide some links to your info. I would love to have my mind blown today.

Where's Marconious?
2006-04-18 14:02:52
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6919|Tampa Bay Florida
I accidentally voted pull out now.. honestly didn't mean to.  I'd say, if we're still over there in 10 years, THEN it's time to pull out.

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-04-18 14:03:13)

2006-04-18 14:04:57
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6925|NJ
I don't even have a debate for this post. More of a question, would you give someone you don't even know 100 dollars to better his situation?
2006-04-18 14:06:06
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I don't even have a debate for this post. More of a question, would you give someone you don't even know 100 dollars to better his situation?
Depends on his situation, but probably yes if I had it.
2006-04-18 14:08:15
Mason4Assassin444
retired
+552|6891|USA

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I don't even have a debate for this post. More of a question, would you give someone you don't even know 100 dollars to better his situation?
Not over the internet..........well y'know......just sayin......
2006-04-18 14:08:56
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6925|NJ
Word I owe alot of money on my credit cards and can't make this bills 100 would really help do you want my address.
2006-04-18 14:11:50
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6873

kkolodsick wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I don't even have a debate for this post. More of a question, would you give someone you don't even know 100 dollars to better his situation?
Depends on his situation, but probably yes if I had it.
better pay up or put foot in mouth
2006-04-18 14:12:41
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6925|NJ
Gun that hundred is mine, I really do need it right now.
2006-04-18 14:23:11
{B-T}<babacanosh>
Member
+31|6831
WT, America doesn't have any right to be in Iraq. There are so many other countries without democracy, but Iraq happens to have oil. Saddam Hussien and wopaons of Mass destruction was just an escuse for going in there. So what did they find, no mass desrtuctive woepons. They did only one thing, get Husiien, but why are they still in there. You cant make that country a demorcratic anyway if someone invaded the country with Guns, i mean how smart can you get thses days, its like going to a little baby boy and holding a frecking M-16 to his head and saysing stealing your brothers lolly-pop is illegal. These insurgents have been living like war people all these years, of course they'll kill invaders with guns. WTF! The way you help people is by kindness, something SOME americans and other countries dont have.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2006-04-18 14:25:03
kkolodsick
Member
+14|6895

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

kkolodsick wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

I don't even have a debate for this post. More of a question, would you give someone you don't even know 100 dollars to better his situation?
Depends on his situation, but probably yes if I had it.
better pay up or put foot in mouth
Ahh but I'm covered as I said if I had it which I don't and I said it depends on the situation.
2006-04-18 14:37:50
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6925|NJ
Well KK right now we're paying more then a hundred dollars for a country that doesn't deserve it IMHO. Not just the war itself, but the rebuilding of Iraq.

Now the whole War stimulates the econimy thing only worked in WW2 because we lent out money and resourses for stuff then needed constructed here. In this case it's not going to work that way, because they'll get the AID from other countries. So as of right now it's a thankless task that is going to send us down the road that Russia went. And get the whole Democracy BS that you learned in Highschool out of your head, America is not a working Democracy it's capitalism at it's best.

 

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