-Sh1fty-
plundering yee booty
+510|5688|Ventura, California
Well in a 10 page war/debate on my clan forum I've decided you ask you guys what your opinion on the matter is. Not that you're ever serious most of the time and are complete assholes to me, so that sort of loses points in your favor unless you debate properly. But I'm not out to win any popularity contest anyway.

Now, they argued the U.S. are scum and should have ended the war some other way. I told them the U.S. warned them of the dire consequences and  demanded their surrender, to which they refused in disregard for the lives of their own civilians.

It's really quite interesting the shit they came up with.

Debate - Note you might not be able to see it

Basically, they just kept coming out with the US killed innocent lives and murder 200'000 people in a lost cause the U.S. wasn't right for anyway.

So lets do this properly.

By dropping the two bombs and killing a total of 200'000 Japanese civilians and military personnel (Note the headquarters for two of Japan's armies were in Hiroshima and it was also a large industrial district, thus perfectly allowing the US to bomb it and not be killing civilians only, which is what some of the guys said, "The US killed civilians not any military".

If the bombs hadn't been dropped and Operations Olympic and Downfall were to occur, the US would have lost at least 1 million men and the Japanese would have lost over 4 million.

Nobody can place a price on life. However, when it's a 6 million vs 200k I think it's an easy choice the people in my clan seem to disagree with. Basically, "Japan was at the end anyway" is what they'd say. That still didn't keep them from stocking up fuel and planes for dozens if not hundreds of Kamikazes, they fortified their beaches, and taught the civilians how to use items around their house to kill the allies, they were going to fight to the last man, woman and child.

What do all of you think about this? Please for once just be serious, this isn't EE.
And above your tomb, the stars will belong to us.
krazed
Admiral of the Bathtub
+619|6994|Great Brown North

you wrote:

I'm just glad that Japanese bastard got shot in the back and died like the rest of them.

you wrote:

I don't care if the US mistreated or mistreats prisoners, it's never as bad as the Japs in WW2

you wrote:

The Japanese were scum and believed the US were a great evil kind of like how the Muslims think we're a great Satan.

you wrote:

You guys talk and act like I'm a complete retard! I'm not!
*cough*


wiki-answers is a terrible source

pro-tip    using derogatory terms while describing something in a debate is generally frowned upon

that whole thread is filled with 15 different kinds of lols

it seems you're not very well liked over there for the same reasons as here huh





if it was as clean cut as you like to think, yes i would say 200k lost is better than millions

but it's not clean cut black and white...
so was it an option? yes
the only (or even best) option? no
SEREVENT
MASSIVE G STAR
+605|6322|Birmingham, UK
I don't know much about the Pacific War/Imperial Japan but all i know is an invasion of Japan would have been far too costly for both sides.

It wasn't very ethical to use the people as test subjects though, but the Japanese can't really complain about human rights from what i've heard of the POW camps, especially on the Chinese...
steelie34
pub hero!
+603|6596|the land of bourbon
should japan have dropped the bombs on pearl harbor?
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36e1d9e36ae924048a933db90fb05bb247fe315e.png
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX
The Japanese were more than ready to surrender, it was taking time to grind through their internal political processes but it was going to happen.
The US was well aware of this.

The US was also well aware Japan is an island with few natural resources, and no Navy or Air Force left.
They could have been surrounded and isolated, there was no need for an invasion.

You can almost argue the first bomb was 'necessary', although not really.
There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.

The bottom line is the US had two shiny new bombs to test, and they wanted to frighten the Russians back into their hole.
The US was incendiary bombing Japanese cities right from the Doolittle raids onwards, the plan was to annihilate Japan so the US could dominate the Pacific.
Fuck Israel
steelie34
pub hero!
+603|6596|the land of bourbon

Dilbert_X wrote:

There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.
three days isn't enough to surrender?!?!?  did we happen to destroy every means of communication they had?  ffs a carrier pigeon would have worked.
https://bf3s.com/sigs/36e1d9e36ae924048a933db90fb05bb247fe315e.png
BN
smells like wee wee
+159|6982
Of course, fuck em.
13urnzz
Banned
+5,830|6712

BN wrote:

Of course, fuck em.
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6921|67.222.138.85

Dilbert_X wrote:

The Japanese were more than ready to surrender, it was taking time to grind through their internal political processes but it was going to happen.
The US was well aware of this.

The US was also well aware Japan is an island with few natural resources, and no Navy or Air Force left.
They could have been surrounded and isolated, there was no need for an invasion.

You can almost argue the first bomb was 'necessary', although not really.
There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.

The bottom line is the US had two shiny new bombs to test, and they wanted to frighten the Russians back into their hole.
The US was incendiary bombing Japanese cities right from the Doolittle raids onwards, the plan was to annihilate Japan so the US could dominate the Pacific.
source.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6757|Texas - Bigger than France
don't name dilbert as a source
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6846|949

Flaming_Maniac wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

The Japanese were more than ready to surrender, it was taking time to grind through their internal political processes but it was going to happen.
The US was well aware of this.

The US was also well aware Japan is an island with few natural resources, and no Navy or Air Force left.
They could have been surrounded and isolated, there was no need for an invasion.

You can almost argue the first bomb was 'necessary', although not really.
There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.

The bottom line is the US had two shiny new bombs to test, and they wanted to frighten the Russians back into their hole.
The US was incendiary bombing Japanese cities right from the Doolittle raids onwards, the plan was to annihilate Japan so the US could dominate the Pacific.
source.
Take a look, it's in a book...Reading Rainbow!

No but seriously, it's been documented.  When I get home if I'm feeling up to it I'll whip out some old revisionist history books from college and supply the sources.
Flecco
iPod is broken.
+1,048|6879|NT, like Mick Dundee

Failed States by Noam Chomsky mentions what Dilbert is talking about. Also discusses Pearl Harbour and a few other things about WW2.


I know he may be ignored or disliked by many but Chomsky's sourcing of the statements he makes is impeccable. Go get the book and check it out if you don't believe me.
Whoa... Can't believe these forums are still kicking.
SEREMAKER
BABYMAKIN EXPERT √
+2,187|6783|Mountains of NC

thats what happens when you pick a fight with the big dog
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/17445/carhartt.jpg
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6929|US

Dilbert_X wrote:

The Japanese were more than ready to surrender, it was taking time to grind through their internal political processes but it was going to happen.
The US was well aware of this.
The peace movement was being sidelined by the military for some time.  If Japan had acted in its self interest, it would have surrendered 6 months to a year prior to Hiroshima.  There were still powerful leaders trying to continue the war AFTER the bombings, but Hirohito finally made the decision for peace.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US was also well aware Japan is an island with few natural resources, and no Navy or Air Force left.
They could have been surrounded and isolated, there was no need for an invasion.
We were also aware their military was going suicidal to kill as many Americans as possible.  Do you seriously think dragging the war on for more years and trying to starve Japan would have been better?

Dilbert_X wrote:

You can almost argue the first bomb was 'necessary', although not really.
There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.
Actually, it is not hard to argue.  Truman wanted to end the war quickly, with few casualties.  Oppenheimer et. al. provided an easy way to do so.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The bottom line is the US had two shiny new bombs to test, and they wanted to frighten the Russians back into their hole.
The US was deeply concerned if the first bomb didn't work, using the second one much later would not have the desired effects.  Tempo is important in military operations.

Dilbert_X wrote:

The US was incendiary bombing Japanese cities right from the Doolittle raids onwards, the plan was to annihilate Japan so the US could dominate the Pacific.
Really, "right from the Doolittle raids?"  Kinda hard without intercontinental bombers!  Double check your history.
The US plan was the unconditional surrender of Japan.  They attacked us, and we got pissed off.  (Although we did accept the condition of keeping Hirohito in office...)
RAIMIUS
You with the face!
+244|6929|US
Now, to the OP:
Most claims against the decision argue that the rules of Proportionality and Discrimination were not followed closely enough.  It is a valid point.  However, from a utilitarian standpoint, the other options for victory were all significantly worse.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England
While we're at it, let's discuss the fire bombings of Dresden and other German cities where millions of German citizens died... or we can use it as a perfect example that war is hell and not worth instigating.

Germany and Japan both started the war, got their shit pushed in and neither has any imperialistic tendencies anymore. Because of the beating they took, the people in these two nations are now very anti-militarism. They've shown that an aware populace can take the reins and clamp down on it's military. So, by this reasoning, a people are just as guilty as their leaders if they do not clamp down on their leaders militaristic intentions, and are just as guilty as their leaders if a war breaks out. Hence, the civilian casualties can not be construed as murder.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2009-12-04 17:16:32)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6921|67.222.138.85
inb4 parallel with modern day US imperialism
KEN-JENNINGS
I am all that is MOD!
+2,978|6846|949

RAIMIUS wrote:

The US plan was the unconditional surrender of Japan.  They attacked us, and we got pissed off.  (Although we did accept the condition of keeping Hirohito in office...)
I think that was what held up the unconditional surrender - Hirohito relinquishing 'divine' status.

JohnG@lt wrote:

While we're at it, let's discuss the fire bombings of Dresden and other German cities where millions of German citizens died... or we can use it as a perfect example that war is hell and not worth instigating.
...but the topic is about US dropping atomic bombs on Japan.
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

KEN-JENNINGS wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

While we're at it, let's discuss the fire bombings of Dresden and other German cities where millions of German citizens died... or we can use it as a perfect example that war is hell and not worth instigating.
...but the topic is about US dropping atomic bombs on Japan.
I was using it as a jumping off point. More people died in Germany from the fire bombings than died at Nagasaki and Hiroshima but people make a big deal out of the latter because they were scurry nukes
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6320|eXtreme to the maX
And the spanish flu killed more people than all of the above.
This thread isn't about flu, its about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

People make a big deal about it because it was a totally unnecessary slaughter when the war was essentially as good as over.

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2009-12-04 17:42:10)

Fuck Israel
NooBesT
Pizzahitler
+873|6683

Why two bombs?
https://i.imgur.com/S9bg2.png
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5573|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

And the spanish flu killed more people than all of the above.
This thread isn't about flu, its about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

People make a big deal about it because it was a totally unnecessary slaughter when the war was essentially as good as over.
But it wasn't as good as over. The Japanese were preparing to fight to the very last man, the same as they'd done on every island we'd taken from them in the Pacific. The estimated casualties for the invasion more than justified the nukes being dropped.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
FatherTed
xD
+3,936|6715|so randum
From a terrible liberal i steal your money POV, dropping bombs on Japan in the long run was the way to act.

Why?

They had an ingrained societal thought for Japan over everything. They would without question kill themselves before Japan fell. Fuck, women and children in their thousands jumped off cliffs as soon as they heard the Americans were coming. NOTHING the Americans could do would stop them resisting til the last person.

While the nukes killed so so so many innocents, via conventional means they would all have died anyway and infact many many more would have been lost.
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
AussieReaper
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
+5,761|6367|what

Dilbert_X wrote:

You can almost argue the first bomb was 'necessary', although not really.
There is no way you can argue the second bomb was, the Japanese were given no chance to surrender after the first one.
Sums it up nicely.
https://i.imgur.com/maVpUMN.png
Flaming_Maniac
prince of insufficient light
+2,490|6921|67.222.138.85

Dilbert_X wrote:

People make a big deal about it because it was a totally unnecessary slaughter when the war was essentially as good as over.
source.

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