BF2S Forums Was WWII or the Atom bomb worth it?

Best estimate for casulaties in operation Downfall (invasion of japan): Half a million dead AMERICAN TROOPS.

That's not counting the Japanese troops and civilians. Count them and the casualties could be a few million.

blue frog wrote:

Ok mabey the atom bomb was needed to finish the war. But Japan didnt want the war. They wernt even invading any countrys. Pacific war started because of evil Hull note that American passed to Japan. All Japan was trying to do was defend their country

Propaganda! Propaganda! Go back to Year 8 History!

blue frog wrote:

Ok mabey the atom bomb was needed to finish the war. But Japan didnt want the war. They wernt even invading any countrys. Pacific war started because of evil Hull note that American passed to Japan. All Japan was trying to do was defend their country

You're either an idiot or a troll.

I have several relatives that fought all over the pacific, mostly in Fiji and the Solomons (Guadalcanal was the biggie here)...NEWSFLASH: FIJI AND THE SOLOMON ISLANDS ARE NOT AND WERE NEVER PART OF JAPAN.  You want to know why?  Because Japan invaded them.  And Japan wouldn't of stopped at what territory they did capture.  They had re-written maps for places all over the pacific, right down to the street names, right over to my end of the ocean, little ol' New Zealand.  Do you know why they renamed the town/streets I grew up in?  Because they planned to invade us.  Thanks to people like my grandfather that didn't happen otherwise we would of all been beheaded, raped and enslaved...and if you don't think they would of been that brutal, go look up accounts of what they did to war prisoners, and DEFINITELY read up on the rape of nanking.  No, they were nice chaps, not nice at all.

Nice to see you guys calling me idiot
Anyway... You do know the Rape of Nanking is propaganda of Communist China?
It has no prove beside chinese people witnessing..
AND It was not invasion. would you like to see what Hull note was all about? fine
Basically Hull note said "surrender all the things that Japan gained in Japan- Russia war if you dont want America to attack you" and other cruel stuff which you can find some where on internet if you are intrested.
on this Radha Binod Pal commented "even small country such as Monaco or Luxembourg would have fought with weapon on thier hand if they were proposed the terms like this" Thanks to Hull note Japan was forced to attack USA. Japan may have done many bad stuff but its a war. USA done many bad things as well. So its wrong to say nuclear bomb was needed to end the war against evil japs. We are considered evil because we lost the war. You guys arent good because you won the war.

Again sorry for bad grammer and crappy translation.

Yes i am Japanese. i saw the pictures. It is very cruel.
BUT most of the picture you showed me have nothing to do with Japanese army or Nanjing.
I could go through every single pictures and tell you why but i got no time right now. The mass killing.
How can you be so sure that it was done by Japanese? Theres no Japense soldiers on the pictures. It was war time. It could be the people who died in disease. They could be dead because of other reason who knows. The boyonett practice of recruit against POW and civilians. Japanese never showed execution to out sider. I couldnt find anything about the top picture but ill tell you soon as i find anything about it.

Ill take that back about what i said about propaganda. Nanking Massacure may have taken place. It is just not proven yet.

blue frog wrote:

Yes i am Japanese. i saw the pictures. It is very cruel.
BUT most of the picture you showed me have nothing to do with Japanese army or Nanjing.
I could go through every single pictures and tell you why but i got no time right now. The mass killing.
How can you be so sure that it was done by Japanese? Theres no Japense soldiers on the pictures. It was war time. It could be the people who died in disease. They could be dead because of other reason who knows. The boyonett practice of recruit against POW and civilians. Japanese never showed execution to out sider. I couldnt find anything about the top picture but ill tell you soon as i find anything about it.

Ill take that back about what i said about propaganda. Nanking Massacure may have taken place. It is just not proven yet.

Oh, so now you want to take it back. Find time, do it now. Stand up for your beliefs. Dont be a coward and hide behind the excuse of not having time.

I hope you go back and re-write the textbooks in Japan and take part in the soiling of your country's image. What you have said just removed all sorts of respect I have for contemporary Japanese people.

How about you translate those Japanese articles featured there? Translate it here for the rest of us, so as to put this whole issue beyond reasonable doubt. Maybe those Japanese articles are fabricated, eh? Just like the rest of World War 2.

My parents lived through World War 2 right under the Japanese rule. Get that straight.

the "bad stuff" as you so nicely putt it were some of the most horrendous atrositys ever done by man.
and these reasons for going to war what are they examples pleas.
you don't seem to be aware of the fact that japan in those days were a fascist country allied with Germany.

blue frog wrote:

But Japan didnt want the war. They wernt even invading any countrys. Pacific war started because of evil Hull note that American passed to Japan. All Japan was trying to do was defend their country

Let me see. I don’t think history books lie when they say Japan “occupied” China, to choose a politically correct word. In my opinion, Japan invaded China. This, mind you, was pre-Hull Note. Full text of Hull Note can be found here. For the record I find nothing “evil” in the note other than to say Japan has to disengage itself from China. Fair request I should say. There is nothing inside that note that says, “Withdraw or else we invade Japan”. If anything, it appears to be asking Japan to cooperate towards the greater economic good for the region.

Hull Note extract wrote:

Recently the Japanese Ambassador has stated that the Japanese Government is desirous of continuing the conversations directed toward a comprehensive and peaceful settlement of the Pacific area; that it would be helpful toward creating an atmosphere favorable to the successful outcome of the conversations if a temporary modus vivendi could be agreed upon to be in effect while the conversations looking to peaceful settlement in the Pacific were continuing. On November 20 the Japanese Ambassador communicated to the Secretary of State proposals in regard to temporary measure to be taken respectively by the Government of Japan and by the Government of the United States, which measures are understood to have been designed to accomplish the purposes above indicated.

Well? What does that tell everyone?

blue frog wrote:

You do know the Rape of Nanking is propaganda of Communist China?
It has no prove beside chinese people witnessing..
AND It was not invasion. would you like to see what Hull note was all about? fine
Basically Hull note said "surrender all the things that Japan gained in Japan- Russia war if you dont want America to attack you" and other cruel stuff which you can find some where on internet if you are intrested.

I did exactly as you suggested. I read the Hull Note.

Hull Note extract wrote:

The Government of Japan will withdraw all military, naval, air and police forces from China and from Indochina.

What are we missing here? Where does it mention Russia? Or to quote you, “all the things Japan gained in Japan-Russia War”? Withdrawing from China and Indo-China, that’s the point of the note. Cruel stuff? I let those who are interested read the Hull Note again and let them say if it even says anything cruel. If anything, the US was seeking a peaceful resolution to the Far East tensions, created by (no prizes for guessing) Japan’s occupation of parts of China (I avoid invasion so that I am consistent with your twisted world view). Again the Hull Note is post Mukden Incident which was the catalyst for Japan’s “occupation” of China, pre-Pearl Harbor and pre-Hull Note.

blue frog wrote:

on this Radha Binod Pal commented "even small country such as Monaco or Luxembourg would have fought with weapon on thier hand if they were proposed the terms like this" Thanks to Hull note Japan was forced to attack USA. Japan may have done many bad stuff but its a war. USA done many bad things as well.

Radha Binod Pal (RBP) wrote:

The evidence is still overwhelming that atrocities were perpetrated by the members of the Japanese armed forces against the civilian population of some of the territories occupied by them as also against the prisoners of war.

Since you chose to quote a selected passage from RBP, I shall do likewise to illustrate a point. So if you think RBP was correct in saying what he said, then you must then agree that Japan was involved with war atrocities as he also said so.

blue frog wrote:

We are considered evil because we lost the war.

Right. By your logic, Hitler’s Germany was evil because they too lost the war. No offence intended for the Germans in this forum.

blue frog wrote:

Um yea... Ok lets get this straight. It was a war. In war theres stuff called propaganda. propaganda of winner becomes history. It doesnt matter if they were goodys or baddies. Its the matter of mass army. Japans is guilty for one reason. For losing the war. If thats not the only crime that Japan had done then other country are also guilty of many crimes. America for droping A bombs for example. Other allied forces for killing many German POWs etc etc.

So genocide is acceptable? The west should just stay silent and let an entire race be gassed? And that countries be overrun? (no offence intended to the Germans in these forums). So you subscribe to that? Again, you say Allied Forces killed many German POWs. Show us the article. I am interested to read up on it.

blue frog wrote:

I am not saying Japan didnt do any bad stuff at all. Im just saying that Japan had reason to fight just like other countrys.

blue frog (earlier) wrote:

But Japan didnt want the war. They wernt even invading any countrys. Pacific war started because of evil Hull note that American passed to Japan. All Japan was trying to do was defend their country

So, what did you mean when you said what you said in two separate posts? I happen to understand that your initial post imply Japan did no wrong and it was defending itself (I don’t think there is a clear indication Japan was invaded at all). Oh wait, Japan “occupied” China, therefore that is considered part of Japan, eh?

blue frog wrote:

Japan should not be treated like a criminal for not proven stuff like rape of Nanjing. Right now all the Japanese people arent proud of them self for being Japanese.

Take a look at what you wrote. You said Nanjing Massacre was a work of fiction, propaganda. Great. In one swoop, you made a mockery of those who died arising from Japanese atrocities. Do you think comments like yours is going to help Japan?

blue frog wrote:

I am not taking any side im just saying that no one can proove that Japan was really bad.

Hence, the concept of Debate. You posted in this section called Debate. Debate means you have an opinion about something, a stand that you want to take. Don’t come in here, say the Massacre didn’t exist and now say you are not taking any side. Make up your mind.

blue frog wrote:

So please just dont see thing one sided. Because theres always another side if you really try to research.

Do your research adequately and make a consistent stand. You might win the Nobel Peace Prize for proving Nanjing Massacre was nothing more than the works from the over-active fertile mind of a Communist Party zealot. You have my vote there.

I happen to have close Japanese friends who respect the culture of the country they are working and living in, and I would love to direct them to see what you wrote. They are not left-wing liberals, by the way, but working professionals.


edited for grammar

Last edited by mikeshw (2006-03-17 06:14:41)

blue frog wrote:

Yes i am Japanese. i saw the pictures. It is very cruel.
BUT most of the picture you showed me have nothing to do with Japanese army or Nanjing.
I could go through every single pictures and tell you why but i got no time right now. The mass killing.
How can you be so sure that it was done by Japanese? Theres no Japense soldiers on the pictures. It was war time. It could be the people who died in disease. They could be dead because of other reason who knows. The boyonett practice of recruit against POW and civilians. Japanese never showed execution to out sider. I couldnt find anything about the top picture but ill tell you soon as i find anything about it.

Ill take that back about what i said about propaganda. Nanking Massacure may have taken place. It is just not proven yet.

This, unfourtunately, is an opinion typical of the Japanese at this time.

"It wasn't our fault"
"We didn't do it"
"It's all lies"
"It wasn't that bad"

Google: Sandakan. Your chance of dying in this Japanese POW camp: about 99%.

xX[Elangbam]Xx wrote:

sorry if this came out unclear but what by the first part of my post i meant was the idea of WWII really broadcasted to future generations and to FoodNipple101 Japan did send a declaration of war but their translators and typists were too slow and didn't take in the american time when sending it. and to Swiftekho, kamikazes were one of the most inaccurate weapons of the war.

But yes I will admit defeat in the A-Bomb debate

Do your homework...There was absolutley no declaration of war.  It was called a surprise attack, and it was just that, a surprise attack early on a peaceful sunday morning.

The declaration was realeased breifley after the attack had begun, and it was no cowinkydink.

i heard that America gave china some air planes before the pearl harbour attack is that true?

Beefy wrote:

i heard that America gave china some air planes before the pearl harbour attack is that true?

Well I don't know about that. I heard that their was a squadron of American pilots/aircraft based in China. I think they were called the White Tigers.