BF2S Forums Waterboarding Is Ok...No Wait!!!

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

We're not nuts. We just have principles and values to which we think people should adhere when carrying out what ultimatley turned out to be a rather collateral-damage-tastic poorly managed wild goose chase.

Ya... NI is an awesome example of values.

Putting aside differences and legitimate grievances to govern the region together after 30 years of violence is a bad example? Hmmm... I see where you've been going wrong.

I meant during the 80's and 90's.  But whatever you say.

usmarine2005 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Ya... NI is an awesome example of values.

Putting aside differences and legitimate grievances to govern the region together after 30 years of violence is a bad example? Hmmm... I see where you've been going wrong.

I meant during the 80's and 90's.  But whatever you say.

It just so happens that we're actually talking about the current 'war on terror' period but you should know, you did write the OP.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2007-12-11 13:23:53)

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Putting aside differences and legitimate grievances to govern the region together after 30 years of violence is a bad example? Hmmm... I see where you've been going wrong.

I meant during the 80's and 90's.  But whatever you say.

It just so happens that we're actually talking about the current 'war on terror' period but you should know, you did write the OP.

Oh please.

usmarine2005 wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

usmarine2005 wrote:

Sorry but how is that claiming the moral high ground?

You hypocritically claim the moral high ground every time your leaders speak of spreading 'freedom', 'liberty', 'democracy' and criticise the human rights infringements of others like China and Iran whilst running the Guantanamo Bay gulag, practicing torture, illegally spiriting captured 'suspects' through third party countries, denying detainees due legal process and subverting democracy in other countries. Clear enough?

You believe what they say?  We sure don't.

I do.

klassekock wrote:

Oh for the love of christ!!

We live in the year 2007 and not the middle ages. If you yanks are so desprate to get information use truth drugs or something, not torture. if you keep this shit up the whole world is going to hate the U.S. 

By the way, arent you supposed to be the good guys????

Contrary to popular belief in this forum there is a difference between water boarding and this. If you felt that you were preventing future attacks would you sacrifice your security for world opinion?

sergeriver wrote:

Kmarion wrote:

klassekock wrote:

Oh for the love of christ!!

We live in the year 2007 and not the middle ages. If you yanks are so desprate to get information use truth drugs or something, not torture. if you keep this shit up the whole world is going to hate the U.S. 

By the way, arent you supposed to be the good guys????

Contrary to popular belief in this forum there is a difference between water boarding and this. If you felt that you were preventing future attacks would you sacrifice your security for world opinion?

It still is a torture method me thinks.

It is, and I actually disagree with it. I'm just challenging this holier than thou attitude within this thread. Water boarding in comparison to what we have seen from the whacko extremist is not the same.... even though some are trying very hard to convince us it is. People tend to over exaggerate to try and make a point, omitting all the area in between.

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Since you’re advocating absolute consistency as judged by what one has been taught, let’s take a look in your direction.  If you’re going to cross that line, allow me to point out how you are inconsistent on this issue and grossly inconsistent on another.  Since you took the liberty to take me to task, I’ll return the favor.  Don’t point at me when you support the use of psychological stress techniques, but not waterboarding, which only has psychological effects.  It's all or nothing if you want absolute consistency.  Second, you’ve done something else multiple times that completely contradicts a teaching of the teaching of the Catholic church.  Care to address that?  Or is that inconsistency a personal matter . . . your move.

a) I have long been an atheist and I'm not bound by the teachings of any church.

b) I said psychological stresses were up for debate and agreed with you on the 'wateriness' of the boundary between what is mere interrogation and what is torture.

What was the second point? You never actually mentioned what it was so I can't respond.

Don't back up now, you called upon your Catholic roots to back up the morality of your position.   

CameronPoe wrote:

Having been raised as a Catholic I see the practice of waterboarding as incompatible with what I was taught.

If you’re not bound by their teachings, don’t reference them as part of your argument.  If you feel I’m inconsistent, fine.  I couldn’t care less if you think I’m inconsistent to be honest.  The problem arises when you question my loyalty to my faith, while at the same time covering your position with the teachings of the Church to whom you have no loyalty.  In short, we’re all in a glass house in one form or another, so don’t throw rocks unless you want rocks thrown back in return.  In detail, I take my faith seriously, so unless you’re willing to convert, don’t reference your Catholic roots to judge me.  If you judge me by the Church, expect to receive equal judgment of your actions in light of all the Church’s teaching.

CameronPoe wrote:

Don't make me laugh. You can be dead sure it was used on far more than those 3.

No, he can't. Just as you can't be dead sure that it was used on more than those 3.

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Do you people actually think that the work the CIA does could actually be squeaky clean and still be effective?

If you want to be genuinely 'just and righteous' it should be. If you want to be 'the leader of the free world' and not draw laughter when you say it then it should be. Effectiveness should matter not an issue of civility/morality/depravity like this. TORTURE IS TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE - it would be quite unchristian of you to think otherwise.

If the world were a squeaky clean utopia, the US and Europe would be able to afford the luxury. But the real world isn't like that, no matter how much we want it to be or think it should be. As such, our people who do interrogations have to operate in the real world...where if you don't do your job adequately, people can die. What is preferable? The discomfort of a single person, or the deaths of hundreds?

What's that saying about the needs of the many?

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Should we ban every interrogation method that has become public because it "puts the prison under stress"?

Interrogation is fine - violent torture-based interrogation isn't, in the interest of principles and civility.

There's nothing civil about any aspect of this. Anyone who thinks it should be is utterly naive.

Regardless, describing waterboarding as "violent" is questionable. They aren't being struck or wounded.

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Well, hello, interrogation isn't meant to be happy fun time!  Is sleep deprivation, being stuck in a cold
room, or psychological techniques torture too?  They put the prisoner under mental stress after all.  Should they be banned also?

I guess you didn't catch the part where CIA operatives conceded that the practice of waterboarding was in fact torture, which is patently obviously to even the most imbecilic cretin. The other measures you speak of? Up for debate.

Of course they conceded the practice was torture...after it was banned in 2005 for being judged as torture by the Justice Dept. Since it had only been used 3 times since being reinstated and hadn't been used for roughly two years anyway, it was no big loss.

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

I guess we need to ban interrogation all together just to be sure!  Then guess what, you stupid Eurobrats on your high horse would criticise the US the instant we fail to prevent an attack.

If you hadn't noticed it has mainly been the Brits, the French and the Germans who have been thwarting attacks through intelligence operations.
No such attack or attempted attack has yet been mounted against USA since those US citizen muslim plotters were ratted out some time ago.

You are woefully misinformed, Cam. All three of those govts' intel agencies work closely with US intelligence to try to keep attacks from happening in any of those places. To give those three credit without mentioning the US (the largest producer of counter-terrorism intel) is folly. You may not have noticed the US's role since you are in Europe...your news and govts will relay things that are important over there. Such as thwarting terrorist plots over there. Ours tends to focus on plots that have been thwarted over here.

Then there's always the chance that none of us know just how many plots have been successfully thwarted anywhere (unless we work in the intel
field, that is).

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

What is considered torture and what is considered acceptable?  None of us know!  Our job is not counterterrorism, for god's sake!  Yet we all sit here at our keyboards sipping our tea and coffee like we know what's necessary and what's ok and what's not when it comes to protecting the US!

Knowing whether a practice is right or wrong has nothing to do with 'counter-terrorism specialists' - it has to do with innately realise when you are causing another human being, a potentially innocent one at that, undue and heinous suffering. It is quite obvious to all those of decent mind. Ask John McCain - he'll tell you about torture.

Yes, he will. And what he went through was undeniably torture. He can't lift his arms to shoulder height because of it. That wasn't caused by waterboarding. If he had only been waterboarded, he wouldn't limp and would would have full use of his arms.

CameronPoe wrote:

Stingray24 wrote:

Seriously, how are the people whose job it is to protect our nation supposed to get the job done and get
information?  How?  Can any of us really enlighten the CIA an tell them how to do their job?  I'm sure they're on the edge of their seat waiting for our help.  There are things that go on in the cloak and dagger world that are far beyond waterboarding that I'm sure would make
our hair stand on end if we knew about it.

You need to seriously revise your faith in Christ because he doesn't teach man about condoning torture, that is for fucking sure.

Perhaps you could have answered how the CIA should get the information from the prisoners?

Dilbert_X wrote:

So why was waterboarding abolished if its perfectly OK?
The CIA has plenty of other torture techniques besides waterboarding which it is still using and are significantly more damaging - sometimes fatal.

You don't get many chances to do the right thing in life.
Its disgusting no-one was prepared to stand up and be counted at the time, I agree  they are all hypocrites and FOS.
Torturing people is the first step on the slope to Nazism which the US is already some way down.

Please provide some source for your torture techniques accusation.

Waterboarding three people now equals the first steps to Nazism? National Socialism? Are you serious? That is a stupendous (and erroneous) leap of logic...even for D&ST.

Spearhead wrote:

Here's the way I see it --

Mental stress = okay.

Making the prisoner fear for life = okay.

Causing physical damage to the prisoner = not okay.

Fixed.

BTW, how is the second not the same as the first?

And you can't breathe. When you're holding your breath, you can't breathe. Same same.

BTW, I lol'd at the waterboarding video. Classic.

Let's not forget these people are suspected of belonging to a group who chops off peoples heads and other wonderful things.  Also, let's not forget that NONE of you know if this method worked or not.  I am assuming it did, but not well enough to fight the liberals to keep using it.

Last edited by usmarine2005 (2007-12-11 17:58:00)