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2006-01-06 07:42:40
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052

B.Schuss wrote:

Detgonzo wrote:

Unfortunatley it is hard to understand why people don't get the fact that the people involved possesed illegal firearms which the federal and state government had an obligation to check and remove. If those people involved would have complied with the law and cooperated with the search, none of this would have occured.

We do have many freedoms as American Citizens but none of them allow us to violate the laws that we as a country have set forth. Alot of people fight every day to keep this true and no one individuals rights over rule that.

If these laws don't complie with your beliefs find another place that has laws that do or vote next time and try to change them. Until then, these are the rules like them of leave.

40
New York
various
Military
Yes
best statement I have read so far. Let's say I run a peaceful cult/church and have some followers gathered around me in a ranch, including children. Let's also say I consider myself law abiding citizen ( which includes not possessing illegal firearms ).

Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant,


basically saying "Mr Koresh, we have credible information that you have illegal firearms on this property and we would like to have that checked out". Now, if all said above is true, why the hell would Koresh bunker himself in and not co-operate with authorities, thereby risking the lives of his followers ?

4 ATF agents were killed and 16 wounded on the first day, while trying to execute arrest warrants against Koresh and search warrants against the branch davidians compound. Cult/Church or not, Koresh was a madman, and he wanted the conflict with federal authorities. He could have let himself arrested and let his lawyers handle it. He chose not to.



30
Cologne, Germany
PBS http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … eline.html and this forum
Import / Export of electronic components / PCB's
no
[  Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant ]



This is the WHOLE Fuckin piont,

They didnt knock on his door.

They didnt serve a warrnant

They they staged a pre Dawn Raid  firing and Throwing Grenades into the Windows.

They went in firing.

Do you know what The people  did ? what you would Do.

THEY CALLED 911 again and again and again.


and now you want to put the blame on the authorities ? ....yea
2006-01-06 07:48:09
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|6986|Atlanta, GA USA
I'm not saying that the government wasn't justified in investigating the validity of the weapons violations, nor am I saying that the charges were all false.  I just think that the government handled the situation poorly. 

B.Schuss wrote:

Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant, basically saying "Mr Koresh, we have credible information that you have illegal firearms on this property and we would like to have that checked out". Now, if all said above is true, why the hell would Koresh bunker himself in and not co-operate with authorities, thereby risking the lives of his followers ?
People don't always act rationally, especially religious zealots.
2006-01-06 08:11:13
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6910|NJ

Horseman 77 wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

Detgonzo wrote:

Unfortunatley it is hard to understand why people don't get the fact that the people involved possesed illegal firearms which the federal and state government had an obligation to check and remove. If those people involved would have complied with the law and cooperated with the search, none of this would have occured.

We do have many freedoms as American Citizens but none of them allow us to violate the laws that we as a country have set forth. Alot of people fight every day to keep this true and no one individuals rights over rule that.

If these laws don't complie with your beliefs find another place that has laws that do or vote next time and try to change them. Until then, these are the rules like them of leave.

40
New York
various
Military
Yes
best statement I have read so far. Let's say I run a peaceful cult/church and have some followers gathered around me in a ranch, including children. Let's also say I consider myself law abiding citizen ( which includes not possessing illegal firearms ).

Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant,


basically saying "Mr Koresh, we have credible information that you have illegal firearms on this property and we would like to have that checked out". Now, if all said above is true, why the hell would Koresh bunker himself in and not co-operate with authorities, thereby risking the lives of his followers ?

4 ATF agents were killed and 16 wounded on the first day, while trying to execute arrest warrants against Koresh and search warrants against the branch davidians compound. Cult/Church or not, Koresh was a madman, and he wanted the conflict with federal authorities. He could have let himself arrested and let his lawyers handle it. He chose not to.



30
Cologne, Germany
PBS http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline … eline.html and this forum
Import / Export of electronic components / PCB's
no
[  Now the ATF is knocking at my front door with a search warrant ]



This is the WHOLE Fuckin piont,

They didnt knock on his door.

They didnt serve a warrnant

They they staged a pre Dawn Raid  firing and Throwing Grenades into the Windows.

They went in firing.

Do you know what The people  did ? what you would Do.

THEY CALLED 911 again and again and again.


and now you want to put the blame on the authorities ? ....yea
If the thing was as simple as serving a Warrent and looking for weapons and the ATF acting for fear of there life , there wouldn't be a counsil on it. Have you watched the documentary on it, it was a horrible experiance, there was nothing illegal in the house, and the mollestian charges came up from him having relations with all the women in the house. I do remember the 911 calls, would a group of people who wheren't going to comply with the law call the law?

Now as far as the america love it or leave it guy up top, this has a big part to do with the law that protects us American Citizens from the government. They had a mobile force outside this guys house with tanks, now I watch alot about raids on the history channel and I haven't even seen that much force used in Iraq, or in any other raid in the US. From my TV Educated experiance law enforcement always sends in a swat team to bash in the door and take down everyone before they know what's going on.  Remember this country wasn't founded on the love it or leave it mentallity it was founded on the "Fuck you I'm going to steal your land, and kick you British out mentallity".  Remember the Nazis where arresting everyone who had weapons and thought would be a threat before WW2 started, so it's up to us to keep our government in line

29
New Jersey
Sales
2006-01-06 08:28:23
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953

Detgonzo wrote:

This is the WHOLE Fuckin piont,
They didnt knock on his door.
They didnt serve a warrnant
They they staged a pre Dawn Raid  firing and Throwing Grenades into the Windows.
They went in firing.
Do you know what The people  did ? what you would Do.
THEY CALLED 911 again and again and again.

and now you want to put the blame on the authorities ? ....yea
This is completely incorrect and it is misinformation like this that propagates the perception that the government acted incorrectly.  There is a difference between a raid and an assault.

During the attempt to SERVE the warrant, resistance was met by ATF agents.  No grenades were thrown, no assault was made.  After the initial attempt, 4 ATF agents were dead and many more wounded.  It was not until after the ATF set up a siege outside the compound for almost 2 months that an attempt to assault the compound was made.  After having the initial exchange with the Davidians, is it any wonder that the ATF assaulted the way they did?  You have already lost 4 people and the opposition inside shows no signs of wanting to negotiate or come out peacefully.  At a certain point, the government has to act or its credability of protecting the public is damaged.  What the hell else was ATF supposed to do?  Go home?

That brings me to another point.  I will never understand the mentality that the same people that want the government to "protect" us, all of a sudden gets cold feet or is outraged at the loss of life when the government exercises the necessary use of force.  There ARE cases where the government screws up....I recognize that (coughiraqcough).  However...Waco, Texas was NOT one of those times.  I'll bet you that if the same situation happened but the leader was somebody named Abu Karim Aziz instead of David Koresh, these same double-standard loudmouths would be rallying behind the government.

If you want an example of a situation that was completely jacked up, look at when the Philadelphia police dropped a bomb onto a house in '85.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE)  I remember that when I was in high school and couldn't believe it.   A bomb.  Even more incredible...NOBODY...not a single soul was EVER brought to justice for that crap, which is a travesty given the amount of property damage and casualties.  If somebody had pulled that shit in a rich neighborhood, the city of Philadelphia would still be bankrupt from the law suits that would have entailed.  Worse, the amount of 'outrage' from the general public was far less than what it was for Waco.  Imagine that.


Detgonzo wrote:

If the thing was as simple as serving a Warrent and looking for weapons and the ATF acting for fear of there life , there wouldn't be a counsil on it. Have you watched the documentary on it, it was a horrible experiance, there was nothing illegal in the house, and the mollestian charges came up from him having relations with all the women in the house. I do remember the 911 calls, would a group of people who wheren't going to comply with the law call the law?

Now as far as the america love it or leave it guy up top, this has a big part to do with the law that protects us American Citizens from the government. They had a mobile force outside this guys house with tanks, now I watch alot about raids on the history channel and I haven't even seen that much force used in Iraq, or in any other raid in the US. From my TV Educated experiance law enforcement always sends in a swat team to bash in the door and take down everyone before they know what's going on.  Remember this country wasn't founded on the love it or leave it mentallity it was founded on the "Fuck you I'm going to steal your land, and kick you British out mentallity".  Remember the Nazis where arresting everyone who had weapons and thought would be a threat before WW2 started, so it's up to us to keep our government in line
What was claimed to be in the house and what actually ended up being in the house are two different things.  The bottom line was a warrant was issued by a JUDGE to search the house to substantiate the claims.  You can make the argument that the laws on issuing warrants needs to be changed, but that is a completely different issue and had no bearing on the current laws in effect right now or during that time.  All it would have taken for the situation to rectify itself was for the Davidians to comply with the warrant.  All it would have taken for the situation to deteriorate was for one of the Davidians to not comply or cooperate with the authorities...which has proven to have happened.  Ironically, it makes detractor's arguments even more ridiculous because if there was nothing in the damn house, why the hell did those idiots resist?

On the issue of the tanks, a siege tank is completely different from a main battle tank.  A seige tank is manly for punching through baracades and protecting law enforcement personel as they try to enter a location.  People say that the ATF and FBI went in with "tanks" and they get mental picture of a M1A1 rolling up through somebody's wall and firing its 120mm smooth bore cannon through the living room.  There were already ATF deaths and government didn't want anymore of their people getting wasted.  Would you have prefered an armored bus?

At the point where SWAT is called in, the situation is already past the point of knocking on somebody's door and serving a warrant.  Even more so, nobody is going to break down your door and assault your house unless there is reasonable evidence to suggest resistance.

- Beatdown

Last edited by Beatdown Patrol (2006-01-06 09:03:07)

2006-01-06 10:17:00
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6910|NJ

Beatdown Patrol wrote:

Detgonzo wrote:

This is the WHOLE Fuckin piont,
They didnt knock on his door.
They didnt serve a warrnant
They they staged a pre Dawn Raid  firing and Throwing Grenades into the Windows.
They went in firing.
Do you know what The people  did ? what you would Do.
THEY CALLED 911 again and again and again.

and now you want to put the blame on the authorities ? ....yea
This is completely incorrect and it is misinformation like this that propagates the perception that the government acted incorrectly.  There is a difference between a raid and an assault.

During the attempt to SERVE the warrant, resistance was met by ATF agents.  No grenades were thrown, no assault was made.  After the initial attempt, 4 ATF agents were dead and many more wounded.  It was not until after the ATF set up a siege outside the compound for almost 2 months that an attempt to assault the compound was made.  After having the initial exchange with the Davidians, is it any wonder that the ATF assaulted the way they did?  You have already lost 4 people and the opposition inside shows no signs of wanting to negotiate or come out peacefully.  At a certain point, the government has to act or its credability of protecting the public is damaged.  What the hell else was ATF supposed to do?  Go home?

That brings me to another point.  I will never understand the mentality that the same people that want the government to "protect" us, all of a sudden gets cold feet or is outraged at the loss of life when the government exercises the necessary use of force.  There ARE cases where the government screws up....I recognize that (coughiraqcough).  However...Waco, Texas was NOT one of those times.  I'll bet you that if the same situation happened but the leader was somebody named Abu Karim Aziz instead of David Koresh, these same double-standard loudmouths would be rallying behind the government.

If you want an example of a situation that was completely jacked up, look at when the Philadelphia police dropped a bomb onto a house in '85.  (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOVE)  I remember that when I was in high school and couldn't believe it.   A bomb.  Even more incredible...NOBODY...not a single soul was EVER brought to justice for that crap, which is a travesty given the amount of property damage and casualties.  If somebody had pulled that shit in a rich neighborhood, the city of Philadelphia would still be bankrupt from the law suits that would have entailed.  Worse, the amount of 'outrage' from the general public was far less than what it was for Waco.  Imagine that.


Detgonzo wrote:

If the thing was as simple as serving a Warrent and looking for weapons and the ATF acting for fear of there life , there wouldn't be a counsil on it. Have you watched the documentary on it, it was a horrible experiance, there was nothing illegal in the house, and the mollestian charges came up from him having relations with all the women in the house. I do remember the 911 calls, would a group of people who wheren't going to comply with the law call the law?

Now as far as the america love it or leave it guy up top, this has a big part to do with the law that protects us American Citizens from the government. They had a mobile force outside this guys house with tanks, now I watch alot about raids on the history channel and I haven't even seen that much force used in Iraq, or in any other raid in the US. From my TV Educated experiance law enforcement always sends in a swat team to bash in the door and take down everyone before they know what's going on.  Remember this country wasn't founded on the love it or leave it mentallity it was founded on the "Fuck you I'm going to steal your land, and kick you British out mentallity".  Remember the Nazis where arresting everyone who had weapons and thought would be a threat before WW2 started, so it's up to us to keep our government in line
What was claimed to be in the house and what actually ended up being in the house are two different things.  The bottom line was a warrant was issued by a JUDGE to search the house to substantiate the claims.  You can make the argument that the laws on issuing warrants needs to be changed, but that is a completely different issue and had no bearing on the current laws in effect right now or during that time.  All it would have taken for the situation to rectify itself was for the Davidians to comply with the warrant.  All it would have taken for the situation to deteriorate was for one of the Davidians to not comply or cooperate with the authorities...which has proven to have happened.  Ironically, it makes detractor's arguments even more ridiculous because if there was nothing in the damn house, why the hell did those idiots resist?

On the issue of the tanks, a siege tank is completely different from a main battle tank.  A seige tank is manly for punching through baracades and protecting law enforcement personel as they try to enter a location.  People say that the ATF and FBI went in with "tanks" and they get mental picture of a M1A1 rolling up through somebody's wall and firing its 120mm smooth bore cannon through the living room.  There were already ATF deaths and government didn't want anymore of their people getting wasted.  Would you have prefered an armored bus?

At the point where SWAT is called in, the situation is already past the point of knocking on somebody's door and serving a warrant.  Even more so, nobody is going to break down your door and assault your house unless there is reasonable evidence to suggest resistance.

- Beatdown
Well the only thing I saw on it was on Stars(the movie channel) and a seige tank is basically an M1A1 without the turret and with a bulldozer attachment. I'm not saying the Branch Dividians wheren't at fault at any point of my argument all I'm saying is there where 50 people in the house with them, alot of them children, and innocent. Now I didn't know of the ATF getting killed before the attack on the house. What excatly was the warrent for anyway? I remember that it was heavily under question in the hearing.
2006-01-06 11:33:35
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Well the only thing I saw on it was on Stars(the movie channel) and a seige tank is basically an M1A1 without the turret and with a bulldozer attachment. I'm not saying the Branch Dividians wheren't at fault at any point of my argument all I'm saying is there where 50 people in the house with them, alot of them children, and innocent. Now I didn't know of the ATF getting killed before the attack on the house. What excatly was the warrent for anyway? I remember that it was heavily under question in the hearing.
Actually, a seige tank is a misnomer.  Special vehicles used for law enforcement are retired APCs...not a retired battle tanks.  They are equiped with bulldozers, battering rams, fire hoses, and an assortment of other breach/riot control devices.  They are not equipped with weapons and they do NOT have flame throwers attached like some of these idiot conspirators claim.

The ATF were serving a COURT ORDERED warrant to search for illegal weapons due to reports of automatic firearms and explosives.  They also had arrest warrants for select members of the group.  All the other claims, baseless or otherwise were not the purpose of ATF showing up at the Davidian's doorstep. 

Here is how it works.  If a judge decrees that you are eating CoCo Puffs instead of Sugar Smacks and issues a warrant to search your house to find out...by LAW, you have to open your home for search and seizure.  There are specific conditions that have to be met for a warrant to be issued, but again...it would be impossible to challenge those reasons until after the warrant was served and the search/seizure took place.  Hence, a person would have to sue the government after the fact by challenging the legality of the warrant.  That means that the time law enforcement shows up at your door...YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.  You either open up your house and be searched or you get arrested, they open up your house, and search it anyway.  Laws like this are around because if law enforcement gave notification of the search beforehand, it would give time for people to get rid of any contraband or persons that law enforcement would be looking for.

Those morons in the Davidian camp decided that they wanted to be Barney Bad-asses and 'fight the power' by not complying.

- Beatdown
2006-01-06 12:02:15
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6950

atlvolunteer wrote:

What I don't understand is why we need the ATF to begin with.  Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are all legal, right?
I'd be all for the ATF if it was a convenience store.
2006-01-06 12:19:00
atlvolunteer
PKMMMMMMMMMM
+27|6986|Atlanta, GA USA

FeloniousMonk wrote:

atlvolunteer wrote:

What I don't understand is why we need the ATF to begin with.  Alcohol, tobacco, and firearms are all legal, right?
I'd be all for the ATF if it was a convenience store.
LOL Me too!
2006-01-06 15:35:32
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6910|NJ

Beatdown Patrol wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Well the only thing I saw on it was on Stars(the movie channel) and a seige tank is basically an M1A1 without the turret and with a bulldozer attachment. I'm not saying the Branch Dividians wheren't at fault at any point of my argument all I'm saying is there where 50 people in the house with them, alot of them children, and innocent. Now I didn't know of the ATF getting killed before the attack on the house. What excatly was the warrent for anyway? I remember that it was heavily under question in the hearing.
Actually, a seige tank is a misnomer.  Special vehicles used for law enforcement are retired APCs...not a retired battle tanks.  They are equiped with bulldozers, battering rams, fire hoses, and an assortment of other breach/riot control devices.  They are not equipped with weapons and they do NOT have flame throwers attached like some of these idiot conspirators claim.

The ATF were serving a COURT ORDERED warrant to search for illegal weapons due to reports of automatic firearms and explosives.  They also had arrest warrants for select members of the group.  All the other claims, baseless or otherwise were not the purpose of ATF showing up at the Davidian's doorstep. 

Here is how it works.  If a judge decrees that you are eating CoCo Puffs instead of Sugar Smacks and issues a warrant to search your house to find out...by LAW, you have to open your home for search and seizure.  There are specific conditions that have to be met for a warrant to be issued, but again...it would be impossible to challenge those reasons until after the warrant was served and the search/seizure took place.  Hence, a person would have to sue the government after the fact by challenging the legality of the warrant.  That means that the time law enforcement shows up at your door...YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.  You either open up your house and be searched or you get arrested, they open up your house, and search it anyway.  Laws like this are around because if law enforcement gave notification of the search beforehand, it would give time for people to get rid of any contraband or persons that law enforcement would be looking for.

Those morons in the Davidian camp decided that they wanted to be Barney Bad-asses and 'fight the power' by not complying.

- Beatdown
Well on an other note about the flame throwers have anyone here ever seen that car alam/safty device they use in africa that shots flames 5 feet out from underneith the car and 6 feet up?
2006-01-07 11:59:03
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052

Beatdown Patrol wrote:

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Well the only thing I saw on it was on Stars(the movie channel) and a seige tank is basically an M1A1 without the turret and with a bulldozer attachment. I'm not saying the Branch Dividians wheren't at fault at any point of my argument all I'm saying is there where 50 people in the house with them, alot of them children, and innocent. Now I didn't know of the ATF getting killed before the attack on the house. What excatly was the warrent for anyway? I remember that it was heavily under question in the hearing.
Actually, a seige tank is a misnomer.  Special vehicles used for law enforcement are retired APCs...not a retired battle tanks.  They are equiped with bulldozers, battering rams, fire hoses, and an assortment of other breach/riot control devices.  They are not equipped with weapons and they do NOT have flame throwers attached like some of these idiot conspirators claim.

The ATF were serving a COURT ORDERED warrant to search for illegal weapons due to reports of automatic firearms and explosives.  They also had arrest warrants for select members of the group.  All the other claims, baseless or otherwise were not the purpose of ATF showing up at the Davidian's doorstep. 

Here is how it works.  If a judge decrees that you are eating CoCo Puffs instead of Sugar Smacks and issues a warrant to search your house to find out...by LAW, you have to open your home for search and seizure.  There are specific conditions that have to be met for a warrant to be issued, but again...it would be impossible to challenge those reasons until after the warrant was served and the search/seizure took place.  Hence, a person would have to sue the government after the fact by challenging the legality of the warrant.  That means that the time law enforcement shows up at your door...YOU HAVE NO CHOICE.  You either open up your house and be searched or you get arrested, they open up your house, and search it anyway.  Laws like this are around because if law enforcement gave notification of the search beforehand, it would give time for people to get rid of any contraband or persons that law enforcement would be looking for.

Those morons in the Davidian camp decided that they wanted to be Barney Bad-asses and 'fight the power' by not complying.

- Beatdown
Key Words " Show up at your Door with a Warrant "

Not have some Fat Fux Climb on your Roof with machine guns at 5am and toss grenades in the Window.

How did He miss that part?

So if your neighbor files a compliant against you, ( thinks you sold drugs )

I as a Law officer can toss a Stun Grenade in your kids bedroom window and kick in the doors and enter shooting. I don't think you are up on the topcs at hand.
2006-01-07 12:19:49
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052
Siege Tank misnomer

Tank is Slang actually for Armored Fighting Vehicle

well we think it was an tank, it looked like one but alright but lets call it anything you want.

The " Vehicle " ( snicker ) that pumped CS tear gas into the WACO compound   was developed by an entrepreneur who thought it would be useful for law enforcement.

But, He found out CS tear gas in concentrated in quantity was highly flammable and Dangerous to use.

So after the Prototype he developed a new version also equipped with a
CO 2 nozzle mounted coax  to the CS Nozzle.

The FBI appeared at his office and wanted a CS tank ( sorry vehicle )

When he told them his findings and fears about concentrated CS
and made the arraignments to deliver the new version also equipped with a
CO 2 nozzle mounted coax  to the CS Nozzle

they responded " They wanted the first CS ONLY Vehicle. "

When offered the New Improved Safer Vehicle  at no extra charge they stated

" They wanted the first CS ONLY Vehicle. "

and would not take delivery on or pay for anything but " The first CS ONLY Vehicle. "

Why was that do you suppose?

I think it would be pretty cool if it showed up elsewhere. Your house maybe ?
I know I wouldn't want The FBI to Rescue me with that.
Does the Coast Guard have something like that in case a boaters children  are in trouble ?
2006-01-07 19:44:45
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953

Horseman 77 wrote:

Key Words " Show up at your Door with a Warrant "

Not have some Fat Fux Climb on your Roof with machine guns at 5am and toss grenades in the Window.

How did He miss that part?

So if your neighbor files a compliant against you, ( thinks you sold drugs )

I as a Law officer can toss a Stun Grenade in your kids bedroom window and kick in the doors and enter shooting. I don't think you are up on the topcs at hand.
I am very much up on the topic at hand.  Might I suggest you read an actual newspaper instead of reading some propaganda conspiracy website.  Standard operating proceedure dictates that in case the person(s) being served with a warrant for arrest or search/seizure decide to resist, the compound is surrounded and law enforcement take positions to make a breach assault.  They had arrest warrents for Koresh as well as a warrant to search the compound.  You act as if the  ATF were going in to search if these people were harboring illegal chickens for cock fighting.  They serving a warrant for explosives and automatic weapons.  Get a clue. 

Nevermind the fact that Koresh and his followers were completely prepared for the raid and KNEW that the ATF were going to show up.  There is absolutely no excuse for the Davidian actions.  They had no intent of complying with the law enforcement officials from the start.  So the fact that you are taking up for their cause on some crazy excuse that the government was overstepping their bounds is absolutely mind boggling.  Like I said...if these were a bunch of people from the Middle East, nobody would have batted an eye.

Wherever you got your information about ATF tossing in a grenade, you had better provide some solid sources because that simply didn't happen during the initial raid.  Law enforcement do NOT carry explosive grenades.  Let me repeat that.  The FBI, ATF, DEA, SWAT, and POLICE do NOT carry explosive grenades.  Stun?  Yes.  Smoke?  Yes.  Tear Gas?  Yes.  Fragmentation or incendiary?  NO.  (wtf to people get this crap?  oh yeah...I remember.  TV and movies.)  There were reporters from reputable papers and television crews around the entire compound filming the entire thing and that was not reported from any of them.  That was a government conspiracy too, right?  ::whistling the X-Files tune::

...and finally, if somebody reported I was selling drugs, chances are very strong that the local police would handle the situation and make the raid after an investigation was made into the claims.  That don't just come rolling into a person's house on a blind "tip" waving guns everywhere.  DEA gets involved for larger cases involving drug trafficing, smuggling, etc.

- Beatdown

Last edited by Beatdown Patrol (2006-01-07 19:47:30)

2006-01-07 21:13:29
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052
" Standard operating procedure dictates that in case the person(s) being served with a warrant for arrest or search/seizure. "

I forget did they ever get served? I don't think so, just a raid.

" decide to resist, "

do you have a choice when a grenade comes through the window. Like you could really assume it would harmless. In fact if a rock comes throw your window in the wee hours is your response aggressive, honestly ?

" They had no intent of complying with the law enforcement officials from the start. "

I geuss they were Psychic. How did they know this?

I saw footage of a fat guy on the roof throw a stun grenade in the window than peek his head in. Didn't you?

At which point I clear my eyes yawn and say. I doesn't appear to be a Frag or WP, Cheerio than !

" So the fact that you are taking up for their cause on some crazy excuse that the government was overstepping their bounds "

This is America That shit shouldnt happen.

" They serving a warrant for explosives and automatic weapons.  Get a clue.  "

Explosions detonations??? None.

In fact ATF was so afraid of some ordinance cooking off they were immediately seen walking through the rubble.

Automatic weapons? I would have Settled for any weapon, did they Melt ? I never saw them.

You " get a clue "
2006-01-07 21:29:59
cpt.fass1
The Cap'n Can Make it Hap'n
+329|6910|NJ
Beatdown did give a very good point about the MOVE moment in Philly. Thanks for that, never knew about that. Things like the Davidian thing never bothered me before 9/11, but know they have me a little more worried. In this day and age I know the police are here to "protect me", but there are only trained in leathal methads. I live in NJ and have to take the train to work not all the time but probably at least once a month there are cops in Hoboken with MP5's and M4's real deal shit. I understand that some times lethal force needs to be used, but it's scarey to think that a mistake(which the police here make a ton) could result in me getting shot with a fully automatic weapon. Seeing how force could be wrongfully used makes me very nervios and I feel like the WACO thing was an abuse in power.

P.S. when 9/11 did happen in Paterson which is by my town alot of the musliem where celebrating and got the shit kicked out of them by the police, but nobody died.  I feel that was more justified then what happened in WACO.
2006-01-08 02:05:47
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953
Horseman, this is my last post to you, because you are obviously getting your facts mixed up with some action conspiracy film you watched last week. 

>> I forget did they ever get served? I don't think so, just a raid. <<

1) They did not get served because they were fired upon.  Hard to give anybody a piece of paper or read their Miranda rights when they are blasting you.


>> do you have a choice when a grenade comes through the window. Like you could really assume it would harmless. In fact if a rock comes throw your window in the wee hours is your response aggressive, honestly <<

2) Either you didn't bother reading my earlier post or you have selective reasoning.  Please find for me where a grenade was thrown during the initial raid from a reputable news source.  Otherwise, stop spreading misinformation about the raid.


>> I geuss they were Psychic. How did they know this? <<

3)  No.  Isn't it obvious?  We all know that Koresh was God and me made the prophecy weeks ahead of time.   But if you don't want to believe that, you can believe what everybody but yourself does.  The Davidians knew ATF were coming because a news station found out and broadcast it on the local news.  The Davidians fortified their compound, put up sandbags, oiled their weapons...the works.


>>I saw footage of a fat guy on the roof throw a stun grenade in the window than peek his head in. Didn't you? <<

4)  I saw a lot of footage.  Since you can't read, I know I am wasting my time, but I will say it again.  The flash-bangs, (stun grenades) were not used until after the ATF spent weeks outside the compound in a stand-off.  They were no used during the initial raid.  They were not used in the initial raid.  They were not used in the initial raid.  Do you get it yet?  After the agents were killed, you expected the ATF to do what?  Walk up with flowers and chocolates?


>> This is America That shit shouldnt happen. <<

5)  Yeah...this is America.  I guess that means that law enforcement should call people on the phone before they try to raid for explosives and weapons.  If you don't like it, go move to someplace where the government doesn't give a crap about making and using explosives.  I would suggest Baghdad. 


>> In fact ATF was so afraid of some ordinance cooking off they were immediately seen walking through the rubble. <<

6)  I have no idea what this criptic sentence means.

>> Automatic weapons? I would have Settled for any weapon, did they Melt ? I never saw them. <<

7)  ...and I have no idea what this criptic sentence means either.


- Beatdown
2006-01-08 02:21:28
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953

cpt.fass1 wrote:

Beatdown did give a very good point about the MOVE moment in Philly. Thanks for that, never knew about that. Things like the Davidian thing never bothered me before 9/11, but know they have me a little more worried. In this day and age I know the police are here to "protect me", but there are only trained in leathal methads. I live in NJ and have to take the train to work not all the time but probably at least once a month there are cops in Hoboken with MP5's and M4's real deal shit. I understand that some times lethal force needs to be used, but it's scarey to think that a mistake(which the police here make a ton) could result in me getting shot with a fully automatic weapon. Seeing how force could be wrongfully used makes me very nervios and I feel like the WACO thing was an abuse in power.

P.S. when 9/11 did happen in Paterson which is by my town alot of the musliem where celebrating and got the shit kicked out of them by the police, but nobody died.  I feel that was more justified then what happened in WACO.
After 9/11, everyone was paranoid and crazy.  There were a lot of people calling for things that were extreme and very knee-jerk reactionary.  How do you think we ended up in Iraq?  Fear does that to people.  It takes away or reduces their ability to rationalize their way through situations.  It was the same thing after the Oaklahoma bombing happened.  EEEEVERYONE thought it was a Middle Eastern terrorist and was in an uproar for blood.  Some of the stuff that came out of people's mouths were shocking.  Then we found out that it was a good ol' boy from the U.S. of A. that did it and everybody is like..."Damn.  Really?  How can that be?"

I live in the Washington DC metropolitan area about 15 mins. from the Pentagon.   Let me tell you...the security around here after 9/11 was like nothing I have ever seen.  They have even changed the road systems in DC to better secure the White House and the Capital.  Concrete barriers everywhere.  The local military bases were on constant alert, installed barriers, gates, bomb sniffing dogs, soldiers with LOADED M16s, blast barriers that spring out of the ground if a car tried to run the checkpoint.  That kinda stuff.  Everyone was on edge....and many still are.

So I understand your concern.  Really, I do.  I do believe that serious mistakes were made by the ATF in regard to that raid.  The biggest one being that the leak to the media should never have happened. At the point where the ATF knew that Koresh knew about the raid, they should have set up survailance around the compound and waited until the Davidians cooled their heals a bit.  I don't think that the force that was used was wrong...but I do believe that the raid could have been done better.

- Beatdown
2006-01-08 10:59:59
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052
>> In fact ATF was so afraid of some ordinance cooking off they were immediately seen walking through the rubble. <<

Beatdown  6)  " I have no idea what this criptic sentence means. "

How did I lose him? He said " they had Explosives "

If you were afraid of Massive amounts of explosives being stockpiled in a wooden building. Would you
  " walk through the ruins after the buring building collapsed and was still smoking.? " Really ?

>> Automatic weapons? I would have Settled for any weapon, did they Melt ? I never saw them. <<

Beatdown 7)  " ...and I have no idea what this criptic sentence means either. "

Again how did I lose him?  A gun, weapons grade steel wont burn, melt or evaporate in a Fire. Where were all these Guns? The ATF is famous for trophy tables of weapons they sieze in real Raids on Real Crimanals

In the Randy Weaver Raid they took the Artistic license to add The Daisy Air 17 BB gun
It did have that Combat look tho !


Notice he got of the " Special Super Rescue Vehicle" / Tank argument or just forgot about it.
Notice all the Insults? I will say that this forum is a " safe place "  to insult a person and its probebly no accident that some people pick this place to do it. oh well.

Beatdown  " I will not answer this thread " 

Thats the intellectual eqiuvalant to covering your ears and yelling na nah na na nah !

As a matter of intrest it was the commander of the Raid on the Move Group in Philly* who did the investigation to see if WACO was too exsessive. Hmmm. ? No white wash there.

* " Big Fire, Big surprise, the Whole block burned down "

Watch " Waco Rules of Engagement" if you didn't watch the hearings live.

Combat Veterans testified on what they saw and witnessed first hand.

you will see  Ariel night vision tape of the event as it unfolded.

if you don't like seeing dogs and puppies shot while safely contained in their Kennels,

Don't watch.

In fact how many people would let someone anyone Cops included, come to their house and shoot their dogs without a fight? Where the hell are we Nazi Germany ?

I like to think I would have capped a Nazi or two before they got me.
2006-01-09 00:46:03
Beatdown Patrol
Member
+1|6953

Horseman 77 wrote:

>> In fact ATF was so afraid of some ordinance cooking off they were immediately seen walking through the rubble. <<

Beatdown  6)  " I have no idea what this criptic sentence means. "

How did I lose him? He said " they had Explosives "
Sigh.  You lost me because your sentence structure made no sense and didn't reference anything I said.  Go back and read again, smart guy.  I said there were REPORTS that the Davidians had explosives, not that they HAD explosives.  Regardless of if they had them or not, what the hell was the warrant for?  To search for it and confirm or deny.  If they didn't have it, they didn't have it.  What is your point?  Is it that because the Davidians didn't have the explosives that the ATF was somehow wrong for launching the raid?  If so, then that is some bass-ackwards thinking when it comes to law enforcement.


Horseman 77 wrote:

If you were afraid of Massive amounts of explosives being stockpiled in a wooden building. Would you
  " walk through the ruins after the buring building collapsed and was still smoking.? " Really ?
You are still hell bent on proving that they didn't have automatic weapons or explosives, which has no bearing on the argument.  The report of automatic weapons and explosives, whether true or false, are well documented by the police, ATF, and several newspapers and media outlets.  So no conspiracy there either.


Horseman 77 wrote:

>> Automatic weapons? I would have Settled for any weapon, did they Melt ? I never saw them. <<

Beatdown 7)  " ...and I have no idea what this criptic sentence means either. "

Again how did I lose him?  A gun, weapons grade steel wont burn, melt or evaporate in a Fire. Where were all these Guns? The ATF is famous for trophy tables of weapons they sieze in real Raids on Real Crimanals
One more time.  It does not matter if they had automatic weapons or not.  I promise you...if you gave me your address and I called your local police, FBI, or ATF that you had explosives in your house or a bomb, you can bet that your ass that you are going to get raided if enough evidence exists to suggest that you do.  When everything is said and done, if you have the contraband…you get charged.  If you don’t, you have the express right to sue the government for mental distress, wrongful raid, property damage, and a plethora of other reasons, collect your hundreds of thousands or perhaps millions and call it a day.  It happens all the time.


Horseman 77 wrote:

Notice he got of the " Special Super Rescue Vehicle" / Tank argument or just forgot about it.
Notice all the Insults? I will say that this forum is a " safe place "  to insult a person and its probebly no accident that some people pick this place to do it. oh well.
Calling you an asshole or some other derogatory name would be an insult.  Saying you can't read might make you FEEL insulted, but that is on you.  The statement itself is not an insult…especially when you blatantly pick and choose parts of my comments to argue about but leave out all the other proven evidence, completely misrepresent what I say, and refuse to list any sources.  Worse, your posts have all the characteristics of rambling and are difficult to read and interpret.


Horseman 77 wrote:

Beatdown  " I will not answer this thread "

Thats the intellectual eqiuvalant to covering your ears and yelling na nah na na nah !
It is by no means intellectual.  It is actually quite simple.  There is an old saying that goes

"Never wallow with a pig.  You just end up getting dirty and the pig loves it."

You are obviously going to believe what you want to believe and nothing I am going to say is going to change that.  No hard evidence or articles or sources that I put down is going to change that either.  Reading your propaganda has gotten tiresome and by this point, people can make their own judgments as to what has happened.  I have spent too much time debating this issue, so if you want to view that as a 'victory' for yourself, then so be it.  You won. 


Horseman 77 wrote:

As a matter of intrest it was the commander of the Raid on the Move Group in Philly* who did the investigation to see if WACO was too exsessive. Hmmm. ? No white wash there.
...and this is why I question your credibility.  Ronald K. Noble headed the investigation, who was the Assistant Treasury Secretary for Law Enforcement.  He was selected by the Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen.  Ronald Noble then named three independent investigators into the Waco raid.  Of the three, TWO had connections with the MOVE raid, one directly and the other indirectly.  The direct connection was Henry S. Ruth, Jr, who served on the Special Investigative Commission that investigated the police's actions during the MOVE raid.  It is interesting to note that Henry Ruth was also one of the prosecutors for Watergate...a bit of a strike against the theory that he would try to "cover" the government's ass.  The second person that was indirectly connected with MOVE was Willie L. Williams, who was a police official during the time that the MOVE raid took place, but had NO connection with the raid or the people involved with the raid.  He was simply a guy on the force. 

This is how misinformation propagates.  Your one statement misleads people into believing that one person led the investigation and covered everything up because of some connection with the MOVE incident, when in fact it is two different people, neither of which led the raid on MOVE.


Horseman 77 wrote:

* " Big Fire, Big surprise, the Whole block burned down "
Watch " Waco Rules of Engagement" if you didn't watch the hearings live.
Combat Veterans testified on what they saw and witnessed first hand.
you will see  Ariel night vision tape of the event as it unfolded.
if you don't like seeing dogs and puppies shot while safely contained in their Kennels,
Don't watch.
You are right.  It is a conspiracy that the mainstream media completely ignored.  They hide or destroyed all their footage of the raid because they were scared of the government.  The dogs that were killed was so tragic, that I completely forgot that 4 agents died the first day of the raid.


Horseman 77 wrote:

Where the hell are we Nazi Germany ?
Hardly...and the comparison of such is a slap in the face of those who suffered and died through what happened in Nazi Germany and any other oppressive police state.  In Nazi Germany, the Davidians wouldn't have had weapons in the first place because they wouldn't be allowed to own them.  Instead of bothering with a raid, the Nazis would have just gassed the place or barraged it with artillery or heavy weapons.  While unlikely, any survivors would have been shot without a trial or would have simply "disappeared".  Any reports of the events would have come from state sponsored media outlets...althought it is far more likely that all evidence of the action would be removed and/or destroyed. 


Horseman 77 wrote:

In fact how many people would let someone anyone Cops included, come to their house and shoot their dogs without a fight?
I will.  If cops busted down my door, I wouldn't do a damn thing because I don't want to get shot by a rookie with a twitchy finger or have my actions misinterpreted as being hostile and have the whole police raid blast me into spaghetti.  If everything is a big mistake, then I will take my chances in court where I will be ALIVE to sue them.  No matter what, pulling out a gun or having my family members pull out guns and start blastin' would be the wrong Wrong WRONG move.


Good night and have a happy life, Horseman.

- Beatdown

ADDENDUM:  I had to put this in today because I found it so ironic after listening to the news this morning about a raid on a homestead in Iraq.  The same people (gun rights owners, Rebublicans, survivalists, conspiracy theorists, etc.) who disagree with the way the Waco was handled are the same people who believe that we should be in Iraq for the purpose of protecting America.  And yet...guess what is going on over there?  The military (aka - our government) is beating down the doors and raiding homes on REPORTS of illegal activity, weapons, and explosives.  There are armed checkpoints, illegal seizures, MASSIVE property damage, civilian casualties, prison abuses, and much much MUCH more...all in the name of security.  Regardless of the ethics, morals, right or wrong...it is a fact that this is what is happening over there.  People want to say, "But wait...we are "at war" over in Iraq", but the military is still a representative of our government and ways of life.   In addition, the sad and unfortunate truth is that the military is being force to act as police in that region, a task that the military is not trained or suited to do.  I am not making a statement for or against the US being over there OR criticizing the tough job that the military is doing over there...I am simply calling a duck what it is.  A DUCK.

My point is this...the same actions that are being condemned over here in the US seem to not be an issue if it is someplace else, even if it is done by our own citizens.  Anyplace but here.

  ...and that my friends is a gross double-standard.

Last edited by Beatdown Patrol (2006-01-09 18:51:48)

2006-01-09 15:19:21
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052
Beat down " Sigh.  You lost me because your sentence structure made no sense and didn't reference anything I said. "

Beat down " Is it that because the Davidians didn't have the explosives that the ATF was somehow wrong for launching the raid?  If so, then that is some bass-ackwards thinking when it comes to law enforcement."

Horseman   Note his wonderful sentence structure. " muffled applause "

My point is that They KNEW there weren't explosives stockpiled and that's why,
just Hours after the fire FBI could be seen walking in the Smoldering Rubble.

Beat down

" Go back and read again, smart guy.  I said there were REPORTS that the Davidians had explosives, not that they HAD explosives.  Regardless of if they had them or not, what the hell was the warrant for?  To search for it and confirm or deny.  If they didn't have it, they didn't have it.  What is your point? "

Horseman " My turn to Sigh, 

My point is that They KNEW there weren't explosives stockpiled and that's why just Hours after the fire FBI could be seen walking in the Smoldering Rubble."

I said it before, This is safe place for tough talk. I hear a lot of it.
2006-01-09 15:23:46
section9
Member
+9|7062|USA
The event at waco was a way to show what happens to people who try to exercise their 2nd amendment right to bear arms.You think you have any rights?.....WRONG.
2006-01-09 15:45:16
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052

section9 wrote:

The event at waco was a way to show what happens to people who try to exercise their 2nd amendment right to bear arms.You think you have any rights?.....WRONG.
We do, People fought hard and died for them. The must be guarded at all times,

Vigilantly Watched over.

I had a Girl friend once who was from East Germany. You should have seen her FEAR when we got stopped for a Traffic Ticket, Totally freaked.

I tried to tell her.

" In this Country, The Police are your Friends, and are here to Protect You. "

The poor cop was like " Hey its cool, sorry, NBD, you can go Please don't cry etc."

So even when some College kid wants to burn a Flag, Unpalatable as it may be to some.
You have to follow the Rules. Everybody has the same rules. Period.

Otherwise we would be like Nazi Germany or Sadams Iraq, sooner or later.

  I always feel. " What you do to the least of them, you do to me. "

You can tell beatdowns heart is in the right place. he just doesn't have my "angle" from being near these shell shocked kinda people who has been on the wrong side, of Abuse for generations.
2006-01-09 15:46:42
./KRUX
Member
+1|6952|Austin Texas
Look here folks....Im from Waco texas. I was familliar with the davidians. I had heard stories of Koresh shopping around at the flea market. I never heard any scary stories about him or his group. Child molesters? Where did you get that? Illegal weapons? How? You HAVE TO HAVE A CLASS 3 dealers lic. to buy or sell anything full-auto, or illegal as someone said. Koresh wanst a arms dealer i promise. The only only one who makes illegal arms deals is our government. No david had some assualt rifles and deer rifles. One thing nobody mentions is he had almost no semi-auto pistols( a true weapon of terror). So what if he had alot, thats IS his and everyone theres right to have firearms(and ammo). You have to remember is was the end of the freaking mellinium. They were getting prepared to fends for themselves. Some religions saw the end of times coming, thats the crazy part of it.
Well that and the FACT that the ATF set that CHURCH ON FIRE. Fact boys and girls. I saw it with my own eyes. Im no anti-government nut. I know what i saw. It was footage of a armored tank using a mounted flam thrower. Now if anyone here knows thier shit they remember this armored battering ram. The footage the national media played was only the "tank" backing out of the structure after creating a massive hole. I saw footage in austin years later that showed the same tank before any damage was done. First there was no damage to the structure, then the tank rams its battering ram into the building. Ok then as its backing up as it backs up you see a small(very small) stream of fire comming from a turrent on the front right side of the tank(above the tranks on top). This started the fire that burned the church. No bones about it. Also i seen footage of a nighttime scan of the area in nightvision mode. Man every tree had a sniper in it, way more than they needed. I guess all the ego manic cops were itching to get some live fire with brand new tax-payer paid for sniper rifles. I though about those innocent kids and women how may have tried to excape at night only to be shot by 2 dozen snipers.


Naw man it as a VERY FUCKED UP deal. I was a senior in high school when i saw it burned, what it meant to me was THE GOVERNMENT BURNED DOWN A CHURCH
2006-01-09 15:59:00
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7052
yea Even in NYC some people were thinking Time would stop tiolets wouldnt flush anymore lol.

I couldn't believe it a Really succsesfull Fashion photographer. Buying canned goods and 00 buck for his loft in SoHo .
2006-01-09 16:12:08
section9
Member
+9|7062|USA

Horseman 77 wrote:

" In this Country, The Police are your Friends, and are here to Protect You. "
.
You live in a dream world pal ......wake up
2006-01-09 16:27:17
hardchubbs
Member
+0|6922|taree aus
Its a shame you guys can't see "the killing of america".  It seems not alot is changing.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0157894/

 

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