BF2S Forums United States War in Iraq -- Can We Afford to Lose?

SuperJail Warden wrote:

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

It didn't fail though. It worked. Our disengagement is what doomed Iraq. There was peace in northern Iraq when we left.



What the hell are you talking about freedom? The Iraqi constitution is freer than the American.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitut … d_freedoms


How are you supposed to give them freedom (???) without eliminating ISIS open movement and political control.

I was just pointing out that it is pointless to do anything militarily unless it is in parallel with removing Islamic control over the people's lives.  That didn't happen in iraq.  Sharia law ruled, people could express other religious veiws, people could not leave that religion.  Islam was addressed right in the Constitution for iraq. It took precedence over everything.

Sharia law did not rule in Iraq. Islamic principles were cited as the basis of the government but the courts and legal system was secular in practice and by law. Sharia was only applicable as an option in civil cases such as divorce and marriage. But many U.S. states allow Sharia courts to have it as an option also.

I made the point multiple times that by the time we left Iraq there was peace. Do you have a response explaining why the military solution used back then that worked would not be repeatable?

Because as soon as the military leaves......  nevermind we should just do the same thing.  It is the American way.

Sigh

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

MajorSpittle wrote:

I was just pointing out that it is pointless to do anything militarily unless it is in parallel with removing Islamic control over the people's lives.  That didn't happen in iraq.  Sharia law ruled, people could express other religious veiws, people could not leave that religion.  Islam was addressed right in the Constitution for iraq. It took precedence over everything.

Sharia law did not rule in Iraq. Islamic principles were cited as the basis of the government but the courts and legal system was secular in practice and by law. Sharia was only applicable as an option in civil cases such as divorce and marriage. But many U.S. states allow Sharia courts to have it as an option also.

I made the point multiple times that by the time we left Iraq there was peace. Do you have a response explaining why the military solution used back then that worked would not be repeatable?

Because as soon as the military leaves......  nevermind we should just do the same thing.  It is the American way.

Sigh

Don't argue with the neo-con, it's not his ass going off to fight pointless wars.

We should have a permanent residual occupation and assistance force. I am not sure exactly how many but somewhere in the low tens of thousands I could live with.

I kind of like how other countries are dealing with the problem, maybe it is time for the US to sit back and learn

Learn how to get blown up?

SuperJail Warden wrote:

A U.S. Defense Department official toldThe New York Times the Russian government warned the U.S. it would be carrying out “a significant number of strikes in Raqqa,” the Islamic State’s stronghold in Syria, before the first strikes launched

Russia bombs Raqqa a few hours ago. France bombed Raqqa a few days ago. The U.S. has been bombing Raqqa for over a year.

Seriously wonder what everyone is bombing. I have an uncomfortable feeling that everyone is choosing to bomb the city indiscriminately.

Pointless political military actions are largely pointless.  But you gotta give the voters what they want.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Could someone, anyone, give we some solutions to ISIS and attacks originating from them? I have yet to see a single idea from any of you. Just a lot of complaining.

They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.

The U.S. government cannot convince poor hopeless black kids in Detroit not to kill each other over sneakers. You will not ever be able to convince the entire Arab Muslim world.


What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.

EXACTLY, all they need is a paycheck.  This is why ISIS pays off just a few people in the government, military, police.

THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM TO FIGHT FOR.  Their families get slaughtered while they are at work, if they help the military, if they show too much ankle in public.......  IT IS THE FUCKING RELIGION.

We must give them the education, security, exposure to new beliefs,...... ie FREEDOM FROM ISLAMIC REPRESSION.  You have to occupy a long damn time and socially re-engineer the whole area.  Once they taste the freedom, change their beliefs, reject islamic repression as "the norm", and freedom spreads then you can leave. 

What the area needs is Sadam back.  An islamic badass that allows freedom of religion because he is more worried about him being the only person with power than really caring about the religion he uses to secure his power.  Someone so ruthless that all the islamic nutters won't stand up to him when he allows people to violate islamic law and convert to whatever they want and has no problem killing off a person and their whole family if they don't play by his rules.

All the muslims over there are terrorists by western standards.  They have no problem with gays being killed for being gay, women being beaten for this and that, honor killings, or people being put in prison/killed for converting from islam.  It is all they know.  It is societal tradition over there.  It is really fucked up and evil.  Everywhere there is the slightest moderation in beliefs and hope, the most radical of the muslims sweep in and kill everyone.  They can't have anything good, hope, or knowledge in islamic countries because that corrupts the power base that keeps people trapped in that mental disorder of a religion.

MajorSpittle wrote:

SuperJail Warden wrote:

Jay wrote:

They're fighting because they're poor and hopeless. Bombing them into the stone age isn't helping them in any way. If you want stability it doesn't come from installing puppet democracies or occupation, it comes from economic hope. The Saudi kleptocrats are the core problem. They're the ones instigating violence in order to deflect criticism away from their essentially feudal system. Rabble roses at home? Create a foreign war for them to blow off steam in.

The U.S. government cannot convince poor hopeless black kids in Detroit not to kill each other over sneakers. You will not ever be able to convince the entire Arab Muslim world.


What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.

EXACTLY, all they need is a paycheck.  This is why ISIS pays off just a few people in the government, military, police.

THEY HAVE NO FREEDOM TO FIGHT FOR.  Their families get slaughtered while they are at work, if they help the military, if they show too much ankle in public.......  IT IS THE FUCKING RELIGION.

We must give them the education, security, exposure to new beliefs,...... ie FREEDOM FROM ISLAMIC REPRESSION.  You have to occupy a long damn time and socially re-engineer the whole area.  Once they taste the freedom, change their beliefs, reject islamic repression as "the norm", and freedom spreads then you can leave. 

What the area needs is Sadam back.  An islamic badass that allows freedom of religion because he is more worried about him being the only person with power than really caring about the religion he uses to secure his power.  Someone so ruthless that all the islamic nutters won't stand up to him when he allows people to violate islamic law and convert to whatever they want and has no problem killing off a person and their whole family if they don't play by his rules.

All the muslims over there are terrorists by western standards.  They have no problem with gays being killed for being gay, women being beaten for this and that, honor killings, or people being put in prison/killed for converting from islam.  It is all they know.  It is societal tradition over there.  It is really fucked up and evil.  Everywhere there is the slightest moderation in beliefs and hope, the most radical of the muslims sweep in and kill everyone.  They can't have anything good, hope, or knowledge in islamic countries because that corrupts the power base that keeps people trapped in that mental disorder of a religion.

Freedom has nothing to do with it. Most people don't give a shit about freedom, they want someone to direct their life for them. It's why programs like social security, medicare and obamacare are popular. Someone else is doing the saving and spending for them. Freedom means you have to choose between 17 different types of deodorant at the store. For most people, they'd rather have one or two options because it takes less effort. Freedom is for the thinkers in society, and they're incredibly rare.

Is it better to live in a society where any interaction with a police officer may lead to your death? Where smoking a joint can bring a midnight no-knock raid? Where holding the wrong opinion can lead to termination from your job and being blacklisted? We don't live in a free society. We live in a society that constantly tries to control and regulate the behavior of others. How many times have you heard "there should be a law"? You're just as free as Mr sharia, your freedom simply looks different.

"freedom is for the thinkers in society"

Jay wrote:

Is it better to live in a society where any interaction with a police officer may lead to your death? Where smoking a joint can bring a midnight no-knock raid? Where holding the wrong opinion can lead to termination from your job and being blacklisted? We don't live in a free society. We live in a society that constantly tries to control and regulate the behavior of others. How many times have you heard "there should be a law"? You're just as free as Mr sharia, your freedom simply looks different.

what are you on?  you simply know nothing about which you speak so I really can't reply other than say, stand on a sidewalk in mecca with a bible in hand preaching gay rights while your wife wears a summer time dress. 

Then come back and you understand what I am talking about when I say "Freedom from Islam".

Hell, soon we won't have freedom from Islam in the west.  When the cartoonist was murdered and when the draw mohammad convention in texas took place there where plenty of people speaking out about how wrong it is to challenge Islamic repression in the west with freedom and the people created the violence by not submitting to islamic teachings.

This is the thinking that allows islam to survive.  It validates islam and along with it empowers the most radical in its ranks.  Just like the Germans did with Nazism.  Left unchallenged, the most worst of society creates the rules for the sheep.

You equating Islamic Law with western law is what empowers Islam even in the middle east.  If American's would have demanded that we didn't invade Iraq without the intent of instilling a Western style democracy free of Islamic influence, the Christian/Jew/Atheists.... would have stood a chance to be empowered in the system and grow in ranks to fight to keep their freedom from islamic repression after the US left.

Instead of people rising up for freedom over there, we have people rising up against anyone who doesn't bow before islamic law.  So much for the Arab Spring.

stand on a corner in the deep south with a burning confederate flag and a pro-Obummer banner while kissing your boyfriend and see how that plays out too.

SuperJail Warden wrote:

What you can do is eliminate ISIS camps, destroy their convoys, destroy their weapons, and create a local national guard that will stop attacks in their country and collect and pass on intelligence. You can build that force out of resettled refugees and friendly rebels and defectors. After all, according to you, all they need is a paycheck.

Didn't really work so well in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam.....

The US invariably goes in and does the wrong thing, upping the ante and antagonising pretty well everyone.

Back the Kurds and let them sort it out.

Most of the worlds problems were created by the US in the first place though.

Dilbert_X wrote:

Most of the worlds problems were created by the US in the first place though.

Jay wrote:

We are a tiny island nation that had a large, far-flung empire that extracted wealth over the barrel of a gun, created countries out of tribes in order to govern better, and generally got the world riled up against English speakers?

I think we can make a compromise and say that this is basically all white peoples fault.