Pages: 1 … 8 9 10 11 12 … 67

 

2011-02-22 12:35:47
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6799|SE London

dayarath wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

What is abhorrent, that Israel should be bound by international law like every other country?
fuck international law, it's a complete joke, being (ab)used only in instances where it's beneficial to one of the major players within the UN.

Bertster7 wrote:

The true '67 borders?

Knocking down their wall, acknowledging the right of return, removing troops from all of Gaza and the West Bank and sharing ownership of Jerusalem with the Arabs (y'know - fulfilling their legal obligations)?

Yes, I certainly think they'd be left in peace after that. Of course it would take some time, the animosity isn't going to disappear overnight, but say 10 years after those sort of changes, I fully believe we'd see Israel being left alone to exist in peace.


You seem to be forgeting it is the Zionist movement who began the hostilities, which I do not believe they want to end until all of Palestine is under full Israeli control.
Sharing ownership of Jerusalem doesn't sound like something that would yield positive results, especially not considering current affairs between the Israelis and everyone else. Besides, how many people would you have to displace to reverse borders going by a map used almost half a century ago?
A map used half a century ago? They are the current borders according to international law. The fact that the Israelis have carte blanche to just go anywhere in Palestine and chuck out the inhabitants and take up residence there is the real issue here. We need fixed borders and no military access to Palestine for the IDF. That is what would make the difference.

dayarath wrote:

Yes, the Israelis need to stop expanding, this topic has been done to death. It is however an illusion that the situation would magically be solved through redrawing the map. The conflict between the Israelis and the Palestinians/Arab world goes much deeper than some petty border disputes.
What do you mean the problem goes much deeper than petty border disputes? The whole issue is border disputes. There was no issue until it became clear that the Jewish immigants to Palestine had no interest in co-habitation with the Arab population.

Israeli settlements are the problem here. The issue will not be resolved until they not only stop building them, but all the existing settlements in the West Bank are handed back to the Palestinians - they're not in Israel, why should Israeli settlements be allowed to exist there? What right do they have to settle in someone elses country?

The whole problem is about the Arab population being deprived of their land. To say that the issue is not just about border disputes is plain wrong - all the animosity is about depriving the Arabs of their land. Having fair fixed borders and no Israeli military presence fixes that. 10 or 20 years down the line, attitudes change.

dayarath wrote:

Let them solve it themselves, it's fucking hypocritical of us to be so involved with Israel yet say literally nothing about China/Tibet, Chechnya/Russia, Georgia/S-Ossetia (bet most here already forgot about that one), and not to mention far worse atrocities being committed throughout Africa on a regular basis.
All of which are countries who are looked on as serious abusers of human rights. Grouping Israel in with them is pretty fair.
2011-02-22 12:39:15
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
Berster, when are you going to take up arms for Hamas?
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 12:41:58
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
If you would like a list of stuff to bring into combat in the Middle East contact myself or 11 Bravo. We'll be more than happy to teach you.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 12:44:38
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
Here's a short list:

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 12:46:32
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6179|Places 'n such

JohnG@lt wrote:

Here's a short list:

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
Sounds like a fucking good night in, needs more vaseline though.

e: why do people always bring the fact they've served in the military up? It's nothing special... Anyone can sign a form, doesn't entitle you to a special condescending opinion like you've somehow now got a better outlook on life than the rest of us.

e2:inb4 the condescending patriotic, i've served my country, I have more life experience, I know what's right/best speech.

Last edited by presidentsheep (2011-02-22 12:50:11)

I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2011-02-22 12:49:24
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6799|SE London

John@lt wrote:

Berster, when are you going to take up arms for Hamas?
Hamas are a bunch of cunts. Just as bad as the Zionists they oppose.

The difference is that the Zionists started it. They turned up, conducted a systematic campaign of terrorism and economic deprivement in an attempt to force the Arabs and the British administration out.

I can at least empathise with the motives of Hamas, but not the Irgun or Lehi.

I have found that most people see the events surrounding the establishment of Israel to be completely abhorent. Virtually everyone I've found who disagrees with that viewpoint seems not to know anything about it, whereas I've been quite interested in the subject since I was young due to the fact my Grandad was stationed in Palestine and Egypt when he was with the RAF. That has led to me reading a lot on the subject.

If you read up on the subject properly and actually understood the sequence of events, you might not have such a rosy view of the way the Israelis behave.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2011-02-22 13:18:30)

2011-02-22 12:51:39
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6179|Places 'n such
Louis Theroux did quite a good program on ultra-zionists, if you like his style. Might still be up on iPlayer.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2011-02-22 12:56:27
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6217|...
Yeah, they started it and they've been living there for almost 70 years now. If you want to add some more fuel to the conflict, go on and displace more families. As said earlier, people don't just pack up and leave - and people have been building a living in these places for years now.

Also, the hate does not simply dwindle even if the Israelis give in to every single demand, the point is that at this moment, the hate has gone beyond the issue of Israel expanding its territory. That's what happens when you have two parties fighting eachother generation upon generation.
inane little opines
2011-02-22 13:00:49
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6799|SE London

presidentsheep wrote:

Louis Theroux did quite a good program on ultra-zionists, if you like his style. Might still be up on iPlayer.
I found the bit where the Israelis were claiming to have bought their houses quite funny, with the Arabs screaming that they didn't buy them at all but just turned up in the middle of the night with the army - which the Israelis begrudgingly admitted to, but still insisted they had bought the houses fairly. Buying a house in the middle of the night with the army present is hardly something I would consider to bear the hallmarks of a fair transaction.

Another quite interesting program on about this at the moment is The Promise on Channel 4, which looks more at the roots of the issue juxtaposed against the environment in modern day Israel/Palestine. It's more to my taste because I'm more interested in the history of the conflict.
2011-02-22 13:09:44
Bertster7
Confused Pothead
+1,101|6799|SE London

dayarath wrote:

Yeah, they started it and they've been living there for almost 70 years now. If you want to add some more fuel to the conflict, go on and displace more families. As said earlier, people don't just pack up and leave - and people have been building a living in these places for years now.

Also, the hate does not simply dwindle even if the Israelis give in to every single demand, the point is that at this moment, the hate has gone beyond the issue of Israel expanding its territory. That's what happens when you have two parties fighting eachother generation upon generation.
Why not? The Israelis displace more Palestinian families on a very regular basis (every settlement they build is displacing Palestinian families). Putting the shoe on the other foot is what is needed here.

Having scattered Israeli settlements in Palestine does not work. It can never work. What is needed are clear fixed borders to facilitate the establishment of a Palestinian state which can improve the quality of life for the people living there. Without that, this will continue exactly as it has done.

You cannot have settlements dotted around another country you do not have good relations with and expect that to work. It's a stupid situation, brought about by stupid policies which have been designed to drive the Arabs from the region entirely. For there to be peace, the settlements must go and there must be clear fixed borders in place.

It's easy to say the hate does not dwindle, but this is not borne out by historical precedent. A few decades of economic progress and things change.



There are two alternatives to this - either things can continue as they are indefinitely or the Arabs could be driven from the region entirely, the whole of what was Palestine could come under Israeli administration and the Zionists could achieve their ultimate goal. As I see it, these are the only options. There is no chance of Israel being wiped from the map, but Palestine certainly has a chance of being wiped from the map - though I think it far more likely that there will be very little in the way of change.

Last edited by Bertster7 (2011-02-22 13:18:03)

2011-02-22 13:26:35
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6179|Places 'n such

Bertster7 wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:

Louis Theroux did quite a good program on ultra-zionists, if you like his style. Might still be up on iPlayer.
I found the bit where the Israelis were claiming to have bought their houses quite funny, with the Arabs screaming that they didn't buy them at all but just turned up in the middle of the night with the army - which the Israelis begrudgingly admitted to, but still insisted they had bought the houses fairly. Buying a house in the middle of the night with the army present is hardly something I would consider to bear the hallmarks of a fair transaction.

Another quite interesting program on about this at the moment is The Promise on Channel 4, which looks more at the roots of the issue juxtaposed against the environment in modern day Israel/Palestine. It's more to my taste because I'm more interested in the history of the conflict.
Might give that program a look, once i'm done watching have i got news for you

That bit was brilliant, from what I could tell, they'd bought one of the apartments then just moved into the rest of them with the army there to back them up, the guy trying to defend it was funny, he'd admit to stuff gradually then go on about how the palestinians were throwing bricks at his heavily armoured jeep and he was a victim because of that.
The IDF handled the situation in that village pretty well though, considering.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2011-02-22 13:40:24
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

presidentsheep wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Here's a short list:

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
Sounds like a fucking good night in, needs more vaseline though.

e: why do people always bring the fact they've served in the military up? It's nothing special... Anyone can sign a form, doesn't entitle you to a special condescending opinion like you've somehow now got a better outlook on life than the rest of us.

e2:inb4 the condescending patriotic, i've served my country, I have more life experience, I know what's right/best speech.
Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh! That's the sound of my point going over your head.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 13:44:37
presidentsheep
Back to the Fuhrer
+208|6179|Places 'n such

JohnG@lt wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Here's a short list:

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
Sounds like a fucking good night in, needs more vaseline though.

e: why do people always bring the fact they've served in the military up? It's nothing special... Anyone can sign a form, doesn't entitle you to a special condescending opinion like you've somehow now got a better outlook on life than the rest of us.

e2:inb4 the condescending patriotic, i've served my country, I have more life experience, I know what's right/best speech.
Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh! That's the sound of my point going over your head.
lul, that's the sound of you proving mine.
I'd type my pc specs out all fancy again but teh mods would remove it. Again.
2011-02-22 14:05:22
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6217|...

Bertster7 wrote:

Why not? The Israelis displace more Palestinian families on a very regular basis (every settlement they build is displacing Palestinian families). Putting the shoe on the other foot is what is needed here.
And as we all know, you dig two graves prior to getting your revenge.

Bertster7 wrote:

Having scattered Israeli settlements in Palestine does not work. It can never work. What is needed are clear fixed borders to facilitate the establishment of a Palestinian state which can improve the quality of life for the people living there. Without that, this will continue exactly as it has done.
And I'm saying it won't be so easy to simply draw lines, shake hands and walk off. You'll have a state that can hardly economically sustain itself a la kosovo, which is pretty much a recipe for more disaster. Either Israel absorbs Palestine or gets forcibly contained / removed. Neither of which is our job to do.
inane little opines
2011-02-22 14:05:46
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

presidentsheep wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

presidentsheep wrote:


Sounds like a fucking good night in, needs more vaseline though.

e: why do people always bring the fact they've served in the military up? It's nothing special... Anyone can sign a form, doesn't entitle you to a special condescending opinion like you've somehow now got a better outlook on life than the rest of us.

e2:inb4 the condescending patriotic, i've served my country, I have more life experience, I know what's right/best speech.
Whooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh! That's the sound of my point going over your head.
lul, that's the sound of you proving mine.
No, I was cracking a joke and you clearly didn't get it.

I don't get all the pissing and moaning that comes out of people when they aren't willing to do anything about the problem. If you're gonna bitch about Israel and you feel strongly about it, go fight for the Palestinians. If you're not willing to fight for the Palestinians then shut the fuck up and go on about your business.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 14:07:05
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6323|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

Berster, when are you going to take up arms for Hamas?
Your 'libertarian' viewpoint is funny, espousing self-reliance and the free-market when you've come out of the socialised military, completed a socialised college course and work for a corporation while living in a city.

Why don't you go live on a prairie and farm to feed yourself if you're so right?

If you're not willing to fight for the Palestinians then shut the fuck up and go on about your business.
The normal process is to put pressure on our own govt to apply pressure to Israel - which would work perfectly well but for US intransigence.
My small contribution is to vote accordingly and avoid US products wherever possible.

Why don't you convert to Judaism and go join the IDF if you feel so strongly they are in the right?

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
As you well know, your contribution was insignificant to the Iraq conflict, which in terms of religious freedom has taken the country backwards.
GG

Last edited by Dilbert_X (2011-02-22 14:12:30)

Fuck Israel
2011-02-22 14:15:31
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Berster, when are you going to take up arms for Hamas?
Your 'libertarian' viewpoint is funny, espousing self-reliance and the free-market when you've come out of the socialised military, completed a socialised college course and work for a corporation while living in a city.

Why don't you go live on a prairie and farm to feed yourself if you're so right?

If you're not willing to fight for the Palestinians then shut the fuck up and go on about your business.
The normal process is to put pressure on our own govt to apply pressure to Israel - which would work perfectly well but for US intransigence.
My small contribution is to vote accordingly and avoid US products wherever possible.

Why don't you convert to Judaism and go join the IDF if you feel so strongly they are in the right?

Baby wipes
Batteries
Water purification tablets
Mosquito netting
Innoculations for anthrax, smallpox, typhoid and dyptheria
Extra ammo
And there are loads of ways to trick out your weapon if you do some searching on google.

Oh, and porn and booze. Hard to get either in the middle east.
As you well know, your contribution was insignificant to the Iraq conflict, which in terms of religious freedom has taken the country backwards.
GG
Aww, I clearly hurt your feelings Dilbert. Want a tissue?

So to recap:
A) Your arguments are untenable because you have no gameplan besides shouting that Israel is evil and Palestine is good.
B) You're more than willing to sit back and watch others die for your own amusement without lifting a finger because at the end of the day you can feel you helped without actually helping.
C) You denigrate the people you would use as pawns and then look askance when they would rather flip you the bird than do your bidding.

Does that sum it up quite well? You're about as pathetic as they come.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 14:18:08
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6217|...
So why are you so damn obsessed with Israel? Why weren't you there in the front row to shout at your government that they should've pressured Georgia for their bullying of Ossetia? Russia and Chechnya? China / Tibet? The Sudan conflict? The Kosovo war?

So I guess buying US products makes you feel bad but Chinese products, who, by the way, are manufactured through what we would consider slave labor, is all OK?

Nothing but a bunch of hypocrits.
inane little opines
2011-02-22 14:19:10
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England
It's also quite funny to watch you do moral gymnastics. It's ok to use American bombs and airpower as long as its against your hated repressive enemy Israel but George Bush is the motherfucking devil because he freed the Iraqis from oppressive Saddam Hussein and the Baath'ist party.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 14:20:33
Jay
Bork! Bork! Bork!
+2,006|5575|London, England

dayarath wrote:

So why are you so damn obsessed with Israel? Why weren't you there in the front row to shout at your government that they should've pressured Georgia for their bullying of Ossetia? Russia and Chechnya? China / Tibet? The Sudan conflict? The Kosovo war?

So I guess buying US products makes you feel bad but Chinese products, who, by the way, are manufactured through what we would consider slave labor, is all OK?

Nothing but a bunch of hypocrits.
Because he didn't read a book about Ossetia or Chechnya and neither is the Cause Du Jour among his likeminded compatriots. Unless the Great Satan (the US) can be poked there's no fun to be had. Gotta fight the good Leninist fight against Western Imperialism dontchaknow.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
2011-02-22 14:23:59
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6323|eXtreme to the maX
Not really, the gameplan is to force action through the UN, or wait until the US has collapsed as a military or economic force.
In the long run Israel won't be there, its just a question of time.

Why would I be amused to see people die?

You seem to feel strongly about a lot of stuff, and use your time in the military to sneer at people.
Planning on signing up for another tour? Afghanistan seems to be going backwards and your buddies in arms could use some help.

Or have you got your degree and are now happy to let others fight and die to protect your 'liberty', having signed up in peacetime and been unfortunate enough to have been deployed? Bet that wasn't in the plan eh?
Fuck Israel
2011-02-22 14:25:46
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6217|...

JohnG@lt wrote:

Because he didn't read a book about Ossetia or Chechnya and neither is the Cause Du Jour among his likeminded compatriots. Unless the Great Satan (the US) can be poked there's no fun to be had. Gotta fight the good Leninist fight against Western Imperialism dontchaknow.
Guess that after the collapse of the USSR it just left a big gaping hole that needed to be filled.

and this

B) You're more than willing to sit back and watch others die for your own amusement without lifting a finger

is what I hate the most about people and their opinions on fucking everything nowadays.
inane little opines
2011-02-22 14:27:55
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6323|eXtreme to the maX

JohnG@lt wrote:

It's also quite funny to watch you do moral gymnastics. It's ok to use American bombs and airpower as long as its against your hated repressive enemy Israel but George Bush is the motherfucking devil because he freed the Iraqis from oppressive Saddam Hussein and the Baath'ist party.
Its odd that you think its fine to bomb Arabs but not Israelis, and according to your theories the Palestinians should get themselves out of the situation in Israel - why was it necessary to use force to 'help' the Iraqis?

You have a problem with doublethink, as 'libertarians' generally do.
Fuck Israel
2011-02-22 14:41:10
Dilbert_X
The X stands for
+1,813|6323|eXtreme to the maX

Dayarath wrote:

B) You're more than willing to sit back and watch others die for your own amusement without lifting a finger

is what I hate the most about people and their opinions on fucking everything nowadays.
You'd be surprised at the things I've done when the time required it.

How about you?
Fuck Israel
2011-02-22 14:46:47
Shocking
sorry you feel that way
+333|6217|...

Dilbert_X wrote:

You'd be surprised at the things I've done when the time required it.

How about you?
You would be surprised

but none of which compare to taking bullets for a cause.
inane little opines

 

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