BF2S Forums Israel and Palestine

AussieReaper wrote:

galt, are you a tea bagger?

Newp.

AussieReaper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

galt, are you a tea bagger?

Newp.

Sad the way they are parading libertarians if you ask me.

Why do you think I despise Beck so much? He co-opted the term to push his neo-conservative dogma under cover of a different name. "Oh, I'm for small government" yeah ok, but you want a bible in every desk and a flag on every home. What the fuck ever.

If you want to pigeonhole me, this is where my beliefs lie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minarchist

Dilbert_X wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

Dilbert_X wrote:

Like I said right at the start, joining Hamas would achieve nothing, nor would going to Palestine.

Using my vote and raising awareness are about all I can realistically achieve, same as you.

Why would it achieve nothing? If enough people who share your beliefs did so, wouldn't it change the world? Point is, it's all well and good to cry about a peoples plight on an internet message board from the comfort of your air conditioned home, it's quite another to actually do something about it. It's hard to take anyone seriously that doesn't feel strong enough in his convictions that he's willing to die for them if need be. I'm not talking about dying for one's country. I'm talking about taking the bullet for loved ones or having the balls to rise up if he was being oppressed. So, I'm sorry, but you and oug and aussiereaper and anyone else that wants to can can sit there in their homes and berate me because I don't care all they want. You all obviously don't care all that much either beyond the fact that your shared beliefs give you a group to belong to.

I mean at least someone like Hunter/Jumper has the balls to stand up for what he believes in even if it's misguided. There's a reason that the liberals of the world have been labeled pussies, cowards, bedwetters etc. It's because they will always be all talk and zero action. They will point the finger and tell others how they need to live their lives without getting their hands dirty. Hell, I have more respect for the idiots on Whale Wars than I do for the internet heroes that bitch, cry, piss and moan about a people they've never spoken to and would cross the street to avoid if they saw them walking down their own neighborhood.

So use your meaningless vote. Raise your inconsequential voice. Shake your impotent fist. No one cares.

If the need arose I would, in the meantime throwing stones at Merkava tanks would be futile.

And its funny you, a citizen of the US, calling me, a citizen of Britain and Australia, out on not going to fight on the side of right or to back ones allies as opposed to venal self-interest - especially given your personal reasons for joining the military - money.

So on the one hand you spit on your soldiers and on the other you use them to say "hey I'm doing my part". Cute.

JohnG@lt wrote:

The Palestinians simply need to recognize that they've lost and there is no going back. No redrawing of borders to 1967 levels, nothing. This two state mess is what perpetuates the anger and hatred. Let it go already.

Would you ever give up or would you rather die defending your country and your family? If not, how can you expect it of them.

oug wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

The Palestinians simply need to recognize that they've lost and there is no going back. No redrawing of borders to 1967 levels, nothing. This two state mess is what perpetuates the anger and hatred. Let it go already.

Would you ever give up or would you rather die defending your country and your family? If not, how can you expect it of them.

Why does it matter? It's just a name. Israeli, Palestinian, does it matter at the end of the day? If Mexico decided to invade the US tomorrow would I fight to defend my country? Sure. But if the war was over and we'd lost I would learn Spanish and go about my business.

Don't you deride nationalism? Why are you feeding into theirs and sustaining it with false hope? They've been conquered in all but name and should do the rational thing: learn Hebrew. Instead, they fight on and the romantics and bleeding hearts of the world look askance at Israel as if it was some sort of Stalinistic tyranny. It's not. The Israelies want the bullshit over with so they can get on with their lives. They don't want to conduct purges or systematically wipe out the Palestinians. The very idea is ludicrous. Do you think they enjoy being conscripted to serve in the IDF or do you think they'd rather be able to live their lives like every other western style nation where the college aged kids go off to school and rebel against their parents like normal people?

The hardliners on both sides are the problem. It's not "Israel is evil" or "Palestinians are Arabs so fuck them". Palestine should've been a lost cause decades ago but instead they refuse to give up and then go "Why me? What did I do wrong?". Neither side is innocent so sitting back thousands of miles away and taking sides is ridiculous. If they want to keep fighting they will. If they decide enough is enough then one day that will be the end result. Passing UN resolutions and the like is just laughable though, especially when the "genocide of Gaza" i.e. the embargo would've been the natural response (or worse) of every nation that signed the damned thing if they came under repeated rocket attacks and suicide bombings from a noisy neighbor.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-02-21 19:04:42)

AussieReaper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

The Israelies want the bullshit over with so they can get on with their lives. They don't want to conduct purges or systematically wipe out the Palestinians. The very idea is ludicrous. Do you think they enjoy being conscripted to serve in the IDF or do you think they'd rather be able to live their lives like every other western style nation where the college aged kids go off to school and rebel against their parents like normal people?

You don't know much about Zionism, do you?

I know that it makes up a minority of Israelies beliefs. It's like saying Tea Partiers or Neo-Cons or Communists or White Supremacists are representative of America.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-02-21 19:12:43)

AussieReaper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

You don't know much about Zionism, do you?

I know that it makes up a minority of Israelies beliefs. It's like saying Tea Partiers or Neo-Cons or Communists or White Supremacists are representative of America.

Yeah, it must be the minority that are tearing down palestinian settlements and building their own? No, it's the Israeli government that is doing that - based on Zionistic beliefs. Promised land and land that is there for the taking apparently...

They wouldn't be doing this otherwise. And you'll often hear Jews outside of Israel condemn it.

And you argue that to see this from a humanitarian perspective I'm a bleeding heart liberal. As if empathy is to be frowned upon.

Empathy at the expense of reason? Absolutely.

And unless you've had your house torn down and a settlement of another religions members built on it, you mean sympathy, not empathy.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-02-21 20:03:24)

Kmar wrote:

How about you just put them on box cars and send them to an undisclosed location?

I don't think thats necessary, at this stage
All we're asking is they stay within their recognised borders, something we've had to remind the Germans about a few times now.

Anyway, box-cars are so last century - technology has moved on, a little rejigging and this should work fine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_bioweapon

Poetic that the Israelis have laid the foundations

JohnG@lt wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I know that it makes up a minority of Israelies beliefs. It's like saying Tea Partiers or Neo-Cons or Communists or White Supremacists are representative of America.

Yeah, it must be the minority that are tearing down palestinian settlements and building their own? No, it's the Israeli government that is doing that - based on Zionistic beliefs. Promised land and land that is there for the taking apparently...

They wouldn't be doing this otherwise. And you'll often hear Jews outside of Israel condemn it.

And you argue that to see this from a humanitarian perspective I'm a bleeding heart liberal. As if empathy is to be frowned upon.

Empathy at the expense of reason? Absolutely.

And unless you've had your house torn down and a settlement of another religions members built on it, you mean sympathy, not empathy.

shit not this debate again

lowing wrote:

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

and yet the Arab and Islamic nations massed in force to attack Israel on the very borders you claim will "calm everyone down" now. How is it you believe that?

Clearly back then they had different expectations as to how this whole thing could turn out for them, and I think it's fair to say that even the most pessimistic couldn't have foreseen the present situation. I'm sure many will argue that even the '67 proposed boarders are unfair for the Palestinians, and in the event that they were to be enforced, they would seek an even bigger cut. But even that prospect is surely more desirable and cannot be compared to the massacre we are whitnessing today.

If we can all agree that if the '67 borders will not bring peace to the ME due to the Islamic determination and stated objective of the destruction of Israel, why should Israel relent? It is a war and they are winning it. A war that, if they lost, would result in their destruction. Yet you want Israel to give any advantage they have in this war to make it easier for their enemies to destroy them. How can you demand that of anyone? and how can you condemn anyone for not doing it.

Hell, even I don't expect the Islamic terrorists to just lay down and let us kill them. Yet that is what you want Israel to do. The UN would not be there to help, nor would the US in your wishes.

I would rather have a Jewish state over yet another radical Islamic state thank you.

Man, I had finally shut him up and you get him going again. Sheesh.

Don't walk into his arguments. They're irrelevant and he doesn't really care. Just point out the fact that he has no plan and he's not willing to personally do anything to help thus the entire basis for his argument is groundless.

Borders returned to 1967 levels and the fighting continues? What now?

"I rruuuu roh"

Palestinians get what they want and commence ethnic cleansing? What now?



He's a run-of-the-mill causehead that doesn't actually care about his cause or the consequences thereof. Stop arguing with him about it. All you're doing is making him feel good about himself because it lets him feel that he's done his part to raise awareness.

JohnG@lt wrote:

AussieReaper wrote:

JohnG@lt wrote:

I know that it makes up a minority of Israelies beliefs. It's like saying Tea Partiers or Neo-Cons or Communists or White Supremacists are representative of America.

Yeah, it must be the minority that are tearing down palestinian settlements and building their own? No, it's the Israeli government that is doing that - based on Zionistic beliefs. Promised land and land that is there for the taking apparently...

They wouldn't be doing this otherwise. And you'll often hear Jews outside of Israel condemn it.

And you argue that to see this from a humanitarian perspective I'm a bleeding heart liberal. As if empathy is to be frowned upon.

Empathy at the expense of reason? Absolutely.

And unless you've had your house torn down and a settlement of another religions members built on it, you mean sympathy, not empathy.

you've got sympathy and empathy the wrong way around...

oh and the jewish government are ideologically zionist - that's the whole point of its formation and existence!

but yes you are right, there are hardcore conservative zionists too that make even the government seem moderate... akin to tea-partiers.

oug wrote:

lowing wrote:

If we can all agree that if the '67 borders will not bring peace to the ME due to the Islamic determination and stated objective of the destruction of Israel, why should Israel relent? It is a war and they are winning it. A war that, if they lost, would result in their destruction. Yet you want Israel to give any advantage they have in this war to make it easier for their enemies to destroy them. How can you demand that of anyone? and how can you condemn anyone for not doing it.

Hell, even I don't expect the Islamic terrorists to just lay down and let us kill them. Yet that is what you want Israel to do. The UN would not be there to help, nor would the US in your wishes.

I would rather have a Jewish state over yet another radical Islamic state thank you.

I don't think it would result in Israel's destruction. What makes you say that anyway? Like I said before, maybe not everyone would be totally satisfied by the '67 boarders, and thus some turmoil might ensue, but all in all I think if the Palestinians had a viable environment within which to flourish as a people, in the long run things would be a lot mellower. Atm the Palestinians have no choice but to fight to the death. They have nothing to lose. Were they to be given a choice, I'm convinced most of them would prefer the peaceful way.

And btw, let's not confuse the Palestinians with islamic terrorism. Sure enough fundamentalism has found a breeding ground among those who have lost all hope for a decent life. But their fight is for the most part defined in national terms.

JohnG@lt wrote:

Man, I had finally shut him up and you get him going again. Sheesh.

Don't walk into his arguments. They're irrelevant and he doesn't really care. Just point out the fact that he has no plan and he's not willing to personally do anything to help thus the entire basis for his argument is groundless.

You'd shut me up? Wow, someone's full of himself...
What's irrelevant is your physics problems and your funny pictures. So spare us the crap and please explain your plan and why my argument is groundless. Personal attacks won't work any more.
And for the record if I were trying to raise awareness I'm sure there are better places to do it than here! After all this subject has been discussed countless times before, with countless undeniable points having been raised against Israeli policy, none of which has rubbed off even to the slightest degree on its defenders, who insist on repeating the same poem over and over while covering their ears to avoid recognizing the obvious.

I already said it twice. You ignored me because it was more logical than your own arguments.