BF2S Forums America haters unite!

Nehil wrote:

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

Nehil wrote:

Hmm It's doing some good sure, but the thing is and this is why I sometimes seem to hate America for no reson: YOU COULD DO SO MUCH MORE! With that much power you should have some responsability, make love not war! America has great potential but what do you do with it? Vote for Mr. Bush? Start wars? Shit...

If we dont do anything to help a country we are seen as inhumane observers, if we do help we are seen as war mongers. So, which is it inhumane monsters or war mongers

Ever considerd that INVADING dosen't always help a country? Help dose not equal war. Or overthrowing a government.

Invading a country isn't always the right answer but some situations require it and that seems to get the most media attention. All of the medical supplies, food ect. that was being sent to Iraq by the UN over the years wasn't being dispersed to the people. Saddam was holding it for himself and his political party. Similar situation happened in Somalia and other African nations. There's not much you can do to help people who live under a dictator without having to remove the dictator, or warlord or whomever has unwarranted control over the masses.

M1-Lightning wrote:

Nehil wrote:

Lib-Sl@yer wrote:

If we dont do anything to help a country we are seen as inhumane observers, if we do help we are seen as war mongers. So, which is it inhumane monsters or war mongers

Ever considerd that INVADING dosen't always help a country? Help dose not equal war. Or overthrowing a government.

Invading a country isn't always the right answer but some situations require it and that seems to get the most media attention. All of the medical supplies, food ect. that was being sent to Iraq by the UN over the years wasn't being dispersed to the people. Saddam was holding it for himself and his political party. Similar situation happened in Somalia and other African nations. There's not much you can do to help people who live under a dictator without having to remove the dictator, or warlord or whomever has unwarranted control over the masses.

I see your point, but where is this leading the US ? I am just afraid the US administration ordered the invasion of iraq without having a decent plan what to do after the military victory ( which was inevitable considering the US war machinery ). Bush can step in front of the cameras and say "we'll stay until the job is done" but does he really know when that will be ? Don't you think he owes you a better answer than that ?

US has a obvious history of military actions to either "bring back freedom and democracy" or "install" it.
Sometimes those actions proved to be successful, sometimes they didn't.
Germany had a democratic tradition long before WWII and still it took a couple of decades to re-implement it after Hitler had been removed.
Iraq has had nearly no democratic tradition at all, how long do you think will it take until that country can live on its own ?

As I have said before, such democratic traditions need to develop from within a country. you cannot just go there, bomb everything into oblivion, remove all "corrupt", dictatorship-like governmant, and, voila, here is a brand new, fully functioning democracy. it takes more than that.

I just hope Bush comes to a stop before he enters Iran or Syria, let alone north corea or china.

B.Schuss wrote:

As I have said before, such democratic traditions need to develop from within a country. you cannot just go there, bomb everything into oblivion, remove all "corrupt", dictatorship-like governmant, and, voila, here is a brand new, fully functioning democracy. it takes more than that.

I just hope Bush comes to a stop before he enters Iran or Syria, let alone north corea or china.

Yes, it will require the Iraqi people to participate in government which it seems they are doing. Just like the German and Japanese did after WWII. The Iraqi people will have to work hard, years after the US has left to make their country better, we are giving them the tools and the ability to do so, something they could not have done under Saddam or anyone else.

South Korea today is prospering while North Korea is in poverty. That to me shows that the US was successful there, and I can only imagine what Vietnam would be like today....


For the past 10 years, Iraq was being poorly managed, and ABUSED by the members of the UN Security Council, who were not upholding their end of the bargin. 3 of the UN Security Council members had under the table ties with Iraq. Resolution after resolution was passed with no repurrcusions.

Lets put it this way, imagine that a country had slavery going on, like literally think of the US's slave days, not just some small thing, but a large amount of slavery going on. Now imagine if every major country turned their cheek, because this country owed them money, or produced cheap goods.

China is too soon and too big of a threat. North Korea needs to have a solution that benefits the countries in that area too. 5 party talks or whatever. Although I would like to see North Korea invaded just due to the atrocities that go on there. Iran is too soon, their youth loves the US, and is not very fond of the religious control.

The US would not have lost as many soldiers in Iraq, if the rest of the world decided to participate. Funny after they didn't participate some of those countries wanted to participate in the process of rebuilding Iraq. I don't know if any of them were allowed, but I wouldn't have allowed it.

I think some excellent points have been made by B.Schuss and FreeBirdPat. I was appalled when they admitted there was no solid plan for post-invasion Iraq. That is a much bigger issue than the actual invasion. It would be so much better if the US would assume it role among the other UN nations and stop acting unilaterally. A lot of Americans disagree strongly with that sentiment, and they don't favor such an apparent submission to the UN, but I think we can maintain our strength as a world leader for peace and progress while playing a heavy support role to joint UN missions. As far as the problem of big corporations directing political direction, that is something only the public can change over time. We need to understand that democracy may not be suitable for all societies. All forms of government and economic systems have their pros and cons, and it may be that a western-style democracy is not in the cards for Iraq for generations to come. It does have to be something that is developed by Iraqis, because obviously they have some lingering issues to resolve in their society. It is always great to put an end to human rights violations and to stop murder, torture, and repression. But it should be no surprise that the power vacuum in Iraq is going to cause a free-for-all. This has happened so many times before, and the conflict between the Tutsis and the Hutus is a good example of what can happen when a ruling minority is expelled from power. Great comments guys!

Sorry for the long posts, but in my ramblings I forgot one important point. It is arrogant of Americans to presume that everyone in the world is best under our type of system. Yes, I think ours is one of the best -- not perfect, but I wouldn't live anywhere else. And I am always glad to see another society enthusiastic about progressive changes toward individual freedoms for women, religion, education, etc. But in some societies, such as some Islamic countries, women might voluntarily accept restrictions as part of their religious belief system. We can only hope that their decisions are voluntary and not forced upon them by some out-dated, male-dominated traditions. But that is where the grey area is; crusade for human rights or live and let live? Which is truly the most admirable goal for a freedom loving society such as ours? Both approaches (interference and non-interference) are respectful in their own rights.

Who cares, They have the freedom to openly trash anyone they want.  And all thanks to the millions of american soldiers that have died to preserve that right.

Nehil wrote:

Ever considerd that INVADING dosen't always help a country? Help dose not equal war. Or overthrowing a government.

It does when a government is oppressing, murdering, and torturing its own people. How else would you suggest that we help the iraqis? You certainly cannot negotiate with a maniac like hussein, and any humanitarian aid would likely be snatched up by the government. So tell me, how?

DLHanley wrote:

I think some excellent points have been made by B.Schuss and FreeBirdPat. I was appalled when they admitted there was no solid plan for post-invasion Iraq. That is a much bigger issue than the actual invasion. It would be so much better if the US would assume it role among the other UN nations and stop acting unilaterally. A lot of Americans disagree strongly with that sentiment, and they don't favor such an apparent submission to the UN, but I think we can maintain our strength as a world leader for peace and progress while playing a heavy support role to joint UN missions. As far as the problem of big corporations directing political direction, that is something only the public can change over time. We need to understand that democracy may not be suitable for all societies. All forms of government and economic systems have their pros and cons, and it may be that a western-style democracy is not in the cards for Iraq for generations to come. It does have to be something that is developed by Iraqis, because obviously they have some lingering issues to resolve in their society. It is always great to put an end to human rights violations and to stop murder, torture, and repression. But it should be no surprise that the power vacuum in Iraq is going to cause a free-for-all. This has happened so many times before, and the conflict between the Tutsis and the Hutus is a good example of what can happen when a ruling minority is expelled from power. Great comments guys!

While I agree that it is horrible that we didn't have a viable plan for post-invasion Iraq, can't agree with the whole multilateral thing.  I have peen a part of three different peacekeeping/nationbuilding missions.  All of them had various foreign troops along for the ride.  Most of them are completely worthless...they seem to show up to get the pretty blue berets, but scram when things don't look like they are going well (I have some not so fond memories of being left in the lurch by the blue berets in a place called Mogadishu...but they don't show stuff like that in the movies because it doesn't play in Hollywood).  I won't name names for the countries that are totally useless, but a notable exception among those that are NOT useless are the Brits.  I'm always proud to work with them.  Some others are good too, but the vast majority are crap.  I'll take their moral support, but they should leave their troops home as, in several cases, they are WORSE than useless.

In any case, Iraq is far from being completely multilateral.  There are troops from UK, Australia, Netherlands, Japan, Ukraine, Poland, Italy and Azerbaijan present there (or were when I left).  And those are just the ones I actually saw...I suspect there are more countries involved.  Can't be arsed to look it up.

irarreF wrote:

Nehil wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong here but Battlefield 1942 and Battlefield 2 are made by DICE. They are from Sweden. YOU SHOULD GET THE FUCK OUTTA HERE. But instead I'm going to be nice and say enjoy the game, it's made for people by people. Share it instead of arguing about it. And bitching about it on a internet forum IS doing something about it, some people will change their views and right now people who understand America is doing something wrong understand they are not alone, just like I discoverd what LaidBackNinja thinks about you.

True, but almost all of it was done in the Dice Canada studios.

Dice canada didnt do shit. They made parts of Battlefield Vietnam and some of the old expansions, who gives a damn..

Monkey, are you ok?

A GREAT PLAN

"The Statue of Liberty is no longer saying 'Give me your poor, your tired, your huddled masses.' She's got a baseball bat and she's yelling, 'You want a piece of me?'" - Robin  Williams

Leave it to Robin Williams to come up with the perfect plan . . . what we need now is for our UN Ambassador to stand up and repeat this message.

Robin Williams' plan...(Hard to argue with this logic!)

I see a lot of people yelling for peace but I have not heard of one plan for peace. "Books, not Bombs" won't work. The head mullahs won't let anyone read them. If they do, they poke their eyes out.

Here's the plan:

1) The US will apologize to the world for our "interference" in their affairs, past &present. You know, Hitler, Mussolini and the rest of them 'good old boys'. We will never "interfere" again.

2) We will withdraw our troops from all over the world, starting with Germany, South Korea and the Philippines. They don't want us there. We would station troops at our borders. No more sneaking through holes in the fence.

3) All illegal aliens have 90 days to get their affairs together and leave. We'll give them a free trip home. After 90 days the remainder will be gathered up and deported immediately, regardless of who or where they are. France would welcome them.

4) All future visitors will be thoroughly checked and limited to 90 days unless given a special permit. No one from a terrorist nation would be allowed in. If you don't like it there, change it yourself, don't hide here. Asylum would not ever be available to anyone. We don't need any more cab drivers.

5) No "students" over age 21. The older ones are the bombers. If they don't attend classes, they get a "D" and it's back home baby.

6) The US will make a strong effort to become self sufficient energy wise. This will include developing non-polluting sources of energy but will require a temporary drilling of oil in the Alaskan wilderness. The caribou will have to cope for a while.

7) Offer Saudi Arabia and other oil producing countries $10 a barrel for their oil. If they don't like it, we go someplace else.

8) If there is a famine or other natural catastrophe in the world, we will not "interfere". They can pray to Allah or whomever, for seeds, rain, cement or whatever they need. Besides most of what we give them is stolen or given to the army. The people who need it most get very little, if any anyway.

9) Ship the UN Headquarters to an island some place. We don't need the spies and fair weather friends here. Besides, it would make a good homeless shelter or lockup for illegal aliens.

10) All Americans must go to charm and beauty school. That way, no one can call us "Ugly Americans" any longer.

Now, ain't that a winner of a plan ??

God dam Right   ahmen    let the whinny "know it all"  bastards have the scum and  when the shit hits the fan I am sitting it out ala bill clinton and all the beenie wearers. Who never fight.