Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6771|Texas - Bigger than France
I'm reading this article from the writer Caleb Carr (The Alienist & Angel of Darkness).  He's really a historian.  Link to who he is: http://home.netcom.com/~tloneditions/id12.html

He proposed a few ideas which I find interesting.

The only thing that might have prevented the war was British Imperial Reform.  Meaning: the American Colonies and the East India Trading Company were used to repay massive war debts, and the colonists were more aggressively taxed than citizens in England, plus there was corruption.  For Americans, the additional tax did not get them "better" service from the government, so the taxes were termed unfair - Americans were British subjects after all.  British politics decided to attempt to repay the debt faster increasing the current living standard in England, instead sucking it up and knowing future generations will reap the rewards.

Assuming British Imperial Reform occurred, there would be no American revolution and the US would still be British.  What he supposes is as follows:

1) The colonies prosper at an accelerated pace, because they know their place.

2) Some of the influential British landowners who were removed from power during the war had good experiences with Native Americans.  There are no "Land Grabs" and a lot of violence is prevented (like what happened in Canada).

3) The South was less imperial minded than the North.  The Civil War was based on the South wanting to retain state autonomy instead of a more authoritarian central government.  If Imperial, the South would have been less likely to resist the British government, given they had equal rights.  Therefore, no Civil War.

4) Slavery is abolished earlier, as it is in England.  The South does not rise up because it would be fighting the North, Canada, and England at the same time.

5) More nations look to the English empire as a sucessful model, some even join it...except for the French.  Because the Bill of Rights/Constitution is never written, the French do not have a model for ideals of their revolution.  The dogma of the rebel leaders lacks a "proven" philosophy, and instead the insurrection doesn't gain enough momentum to revolt.  Instead, the French leaders see the progressive changes in the English empire and eventually reform without violence.  So no Napolean.

6) The Spanish holdings were violent conquests, and the economy was based on servitude.  Spanish communities trading and mingling with the Empire begin to see the potential reforms.  Eventually, the English instigates revolts in Central America, and it flows Southward.  The Empire publically supports these revolts - Spain can in South America, but doesn't face down Britain and the new American industrial empire.  It sells or cedes all of South America or at least a big chunk of it is now British.

7) The Prussian war still flares which includes grabbing France and a lot of Russia.  Instead of fighting, British and Germany diplomacy works (stay away from our interests and we'll stay out of yours)...British and Germany begin working together.

8) World War I does not occur - Germany covets what the British have, but decide not to challenge the largest Empire the world has ever known.

9) British & Germany unite to fight the uprising to destroy a small Bolshevik army - no Russia.

10) And finally, eventually pieces of the Empire begin to request for more autonomy.  Eventually, since the relationship with Germany has actually provided a greater benefit than thought before, the commonwealth system is loosened up, much like Canada and Austria today.

I thought it was an interesting enough idea to post.

Anyone else think of any other re-writes due to this scenario?
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
#2 what was colonization if not a land grab, sorry, but displacing natives was not invented by americans

#4 you contradict #3, the civ war was not about slavery

mostly those are pretty good hypotheses, don't forget that

#11the middle third of the continental US was purchased from the french, had this not happened then

#12 the west coast would have remained in spanish/mexican control

an iffy #13 is that ingenuity is driven by war, and the industrial revolution was driven by the conflicts of the 1800's, as well as what we enjoy in the modern era being driven by WW2, which may not have occured,

#14 alaska would still be russian, possibly allowing them to have a heavy hand in the evolution of north america
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6771|Texas - Bigger than France
True - on the Lousiana purchase and #13 - it's possible that no Nappy Boner in France, no Louisiana Purchase.

On the other points, Canada expansion was relatively peaceful, if slavery was ever a reason (it wasn't) Caleb made an error, Mexico (Texas, Cali included) gets absorbed on #6, and Alaska is owned by Germany #7 & #9.

This is Caleb's wonderland.  I think is plausible but remote.
kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
yeah i was thinking alaska would have provided the USSR with much needed resources but then I suppose that they lacked the infrastructure at the time to make use of it
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6949|California

would you care for a spot of tea?
Eagle
Togs8896 is my evil alter ego
+567|6860|New Hampshire, USA
Sounds like someones saying "if it werent for america, the world would be a better place..."
https://static.bf2s.com/files/user/14407/Sig_Pats.jpg
paranoid101
Ambitious but Rubbish
+540|6969
One good thing would have better if it never happened, We wouldnt have had to sit through that God awful Mel Gibson film "The Patriot".
stryyker
bad touch
+1,682|6949|California

paranoid101 wrote:

One good thing would have better if it never happened, We wouldnt have had to sit through that God awful Mel Gibson film "The Patriot".
the patriot was good, if it didnt show your countrys soldiers getting killed with an axe
Sgt.Zubie
Member
+77|6805
If if's and but's were candy and nut's...we'd all have a merry christmas
PspRpg-7
-
+961|6927

stryyker wrote:

would you care for a spot of tea?
Jesus would.
Slam
Member
+74|6864

Sgt.Zubie wrote:

If if's and but's were candy and nut's...we'd all have a merry christmas
lol +1
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6904|Canberra, AUS
I don't see how this sort of 'if this happened instead of that then...' thinking will lead us anywhere. For example, if just a single shell had been a little more powerful, or a few pieces of shrapnel from that shell would have been a little differently directed, then Hitler would've died and WWII would not have been nearly as horrible as it was (it was always going to happen eventually).

But that doesn't get me anywhere, save an appreciation of how fickle fate is.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
ATG
Banned
+5,233|6758|Global Command
Spark, only somebody really bored would be thinking so deep as to take this thread seriously.

Last edited by Alexanderthegrape (2006-07-28 21:11:56)

Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6904|Canberra, AUS
Well...

It is in the Debate and Serious talk section...
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6919|Tampa Bay Florida

paranoid101 wrote:

One good thing would have better if it never happened, We wouldnt have had to sit through that God awful Mel Gibson film "The Patriot".
lol, Mel Gibson sucks.  The only movie that's okay to me is Signs, but that's only because it was a good movie, has nothing to do with Gibson
TrollmeaT
Aspiring Objectivist
+492|6902|Colorado
That's alot of if's... to many for me.
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945
derailed...
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
Spark
liquid fluoride thorium reactor
+874|6904|Canberra, AUS
DERAILED!!!!!11!!one!!!!!111oneelevenexclamationmark
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
Cybargs
Moderated
+2,285|6945

Spark wrote:

DERAILED!!!!!11!!one!!!!!111oneelevenexclamationmark
yes. derailed
https://cache.www.gametracker.com/server_info/203.46.105.23:21300/b_350_20_692108_381007_FFFFFF_000000.png
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|6797|Oxford
Well written points and all plausible as far as 'what if' scenarios go. My only objection would be the prominence given to Britain in this turn of events. France and Spain would have been vying for at least equal status.

The one big 'what if' ,in my humble opinion, would have been Africa.
Pug
UR father's brother's nephew's former roommate
+652|6771|Texas - Bigger than France
Yeah, The Patriot really sucked.  I saw Mad Max on cable the other day.  It's really not that good...must be a cult movie classic.  Of course now, he's into driving intoxicated.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7001|PNW

I believe that America under a Union Jack would have been just as hostile towards the indians of the west as Americans were under Old Glory. Some of the later bickers with England may not have taken place, and America would have responded a bit faster to the World Wars. With our resources in hand, the British Empire may not have had to relinquish so many colonies to local control.

It would've been an interesting bit of politics to see how the Louisiana Purchase would've panned out.

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