G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6879|Sea to globally-cooled sea
I received this article in an email, and I believe it.

Jonah Goldberg: The price of 'nice' for Canada
Our northern neighbor thinks being all multicultural and sucking up to the United Nations will keep the terrorists away. Think again.
Jonah Goldberg

June 8, 2006

A FEW YEARS AGO I wrote a cover story for National Review with the subtle and nuanced title, "Bomb Canada: The Case for War." It caused quite a stir up there. My argument at the time was that Canada needed to be slapped out of its delusions and forced to stand up for itself in ways other than the Potemkin courage it shows in "standing up" to the United States.

Had I thought of it at the time, maybe I should have had American bombers stand down and suggested instead that Islamic terrorists plot to behead the Canadian prime minister and blow up a few important buildings.

Canada is arguably the most deluded industrialized nation in the world. Because elite Canadians think the U.S. is the font of the world's problems, they think being different than the U.S. and sucking up to the United Nations will buy them grace on the cheap. They claim to be "a nation of peacekeepers," but they rank 50th among U.N. peacekeeper nations in the number of troops sent. They've bravely contributed to the war in Afghanistan, where 2,300 troops still serve, but refused to join the effort in Iraq, believing that jihadists would honor such fine distinctions. That was awfully nice of them. Too bad nice has nothing to do with it.

The presence of a profoundly evil, homegrown terror cell in Canada has understandably provoked a lot of soul-searching to our north. As one Canadian editorial put it: "We are Canada, peacekeepers to the world, everybody's nice guy. Who would want to harm us, and why?" Or as Audrey Macklin, a University of Toronto law professor, confessed to the L.A. Times, Canadians "picture themselves as being thought of as nicer than the United States." Why on earth would terrorists want to hurt a "nice" country? Well, for starters, nice isn't all it's cracked up to be. The frog who carried the scorpion on his back in Aesop's fable was nice. It didn't make the scorpion's sting any less poisonous.

Indeed, there's good reason to believe that niceness is part of the problem, not the solution. Many Canadians (and Americans and Europeans) cling to a deep-seated belief that more multiculturalism, more interfaith dialogue, more "understanding," more Western apologies, more acceptance of Sharia, more "niceness" will fix the problem.

As the American Enterprise Institute's Reuel Marc Gerecht and the French intellectual Olivier Roy have suggested, multiculturalism in many ways breeds Islamic radicalism among deracinated "born-again" Muslims in the West. It foments the climate of grievance and honors the quest for radical authenticity. Indeed, jihadism imports any number of Marxist and anti-colonial bugaboos into its worldview and then spits them back out at the West. "This militant evolution is happening, in situ, on our territory. It partakes henceforth of the internal history of the West," Roy observed. The 9/11 hijackers were Westernized, educated and cosmopolitan. Nearly all of the alleged Canadian plotters were raised in Canada and attended Canadian public schools. They were indeed homegrown.

Just a few weeks before the alleged Canadian terror plot was revealed, a sociology professor penned an essay in a Canadian newspaper boasting how well "multiculturalism works in Canada." Canadians are blissfully immune to the backlash against multiculturalism in Europe and the U.S. caused by jihadi terror, argued Augie Fleras, and this has created a climate of progress and social peace. Fleras might want to revisit that.

But if Europe and the U.S. are any guide, it's doubtful Fleras and his confreres will have any epiphanies about the failures of multiculturalism. The Danish cartoon controversy was a perfect example of appeasement. A host of Western leaders indulged jihadist outbursts and threats to behead cartoonists and journalists by denouncing, in Bill Clinton's words, "these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam." Sen. John Kerry joined in the moral equivalence: "These and other inflammatory images deserve our scorn, just as the violence against embassies and military installations are an unacceptable and intolerable form of protest." And French President Jacques Chirac tut-tutted that "anything liable to offend the beliefs of others, particularly religious beliefs, must be avoided."

In Canada, the retreat into denial was instantaneous. At the news conference announcing the arrests, officials said the alleged plotters came from "a variety of backgrounds" and the "broad strata" of Canadian society because "some are students, some are employed, some are unemployed." They might as well have said the accused plotters were diverse because they all liked different ice cream. The relevant fact was that they were all Muslim and nearly all attended a single radical mosque. But it would be rude to mention that.

In a meeting with Muslim leaders the day after the news conference, Toronto's chief of police reportedly boasted that the government never mentioned the alleged terrorists' religion. Well, isn't that sweet. I'm sure the next time Islamists set out to chop off lawmakers' heads or murder the staff of the Canadian Broadcasting Co., they'll keep in mind how nice you were about all this.
malarkeycoon
Member
+16|6893|Cardiff
I would say the internet and the media have more to do with the rise in terrorist behaviour than being a 'nice' or 'agressor' country. Previously isolated and unmotivated groups of radical thinkers are now united by newsgroups on the net and the attention their actions get paid on tv.
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6879|Sea to globally-cooled sea
you think so?  I think that the nature of those who practice Jihad is to kill for the sake of hatred.  They hate, so they kill; they do not care what you say about them, think about them, or do for them.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809
Neo-conservative tripe. Looks like Jonah is a bit pissed off that 'Oh my God!' another country chooses to do things their way, the way they see fit. Well guess what Jonah - fuck off back to Israel and hand american politics back to americans.

It's a vicious circle: Jihadists WANT westerners to become anti-muslim so that they can increase their follwoing among muslims who perceive themselves to be persecuted. To not respond or to act as Canada have - by doing their best to prevent the events - is better than alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?

Case-in-point:
In 1971 the IRA in Ireland did not enjoy wide support and were a pretty small organisation. They had reappeared after a lengthy absence from Irish society in response to increasingly harsh discrimination against nationalists in northern ireland. On 30th of January 1972, a peaceful demonstration was taking place in Derry City in northern ireland in search of civil rights and basic equality for catholics in the north. Unprovoked, the British army stormed the parade killing 13 unarmed civilians, some having been shot in the back. The nationalist community were outraged.
So what was the upshot? Membership of the IRA SKYROCKETED!!! No act before or since in Ireland has done more to bolster the IRA. Moral of the story: strongarm tactics helped fuel 25 years of bloodthirsty conflict.
The IRA is now on permanent ceasefire. How was that achieved? Politics, diplomacy and the alleviation of the plight of the discriminated against in the north. Go figure.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-07-17 09:40:28)

Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6943|Tampa Bay Florida

CameronPoe wrote:

Neo-conservative tripe. Looks like Jonah is a bit pissed off that 'Oh my God!' anothe country chooses to do things their way, the way they see fit. Well guess what Jonah - fuck off back to Israel and hand american politics back to americans.

It's a vicious circle: Jihadists WANT westerners to become anti-muslim so that they can increase their follwoing among muslims who perceive themselves to be persecuted. To not respond or to act as Canada have - by doing their best to prevent the events - is better than alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?
damn right
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6988|California

CameronPoe wrote:

alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?
So turning a blind eye to the problem will make it go away?

I'm asking when will people wake up to the fact that there are people out there who want to kill you.

Not because of anything you have done. Simply because you are not one of them.

Think what you want, believe whatever they tell you. At the end of the day, they want to kill you. There is no easier way to put it. You do not think or act like them, so in the end, you are an infidel, slated for death by the hands of the holy warriors.

To think anything else is insanity.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

Erkut.hv wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?
So turning a blind eye to the problem will make it go away?

I'm asking when will people wake up to the fact that there are people out there who want to kill you.

Not because of anything you have done. Simply because you are not one of them.

Think what you want, believe whatever they tell you. At the end of the day, they want to kill you. There is no easier way to put it. You do not think or act like them, so in the end, you are an infidel, slated for death by the hands of the holy warriors.

To think anything else is insanity.
Please refer back to my edited post for an example of the kind of thing I am talking about. You don't need to 'turn a blind eye' just make bloody sure your domestic security is top notch. And then deal with terrorist activity, when it does happen, in a calm and mature matter. Terrorism will NEVER end. What are you gonna do? Kill every muslim in the entire world!? Didn't Hitler try that with people of another creed? Hmmm.... similarities!!

Emphasis should be on defence not attack!

ALso, Erkut - I have no illusions about the fact that Jihadists want me dead, you dead, westerners in general dead. That goes without saying. I'm not sticking up for them - I'm saying the method being employed to deal with this relatively new phenomenon is flawed.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-12 08:57:48)

Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6988|California

CameronPoe wrote:

And then deal with terrorist activity, when it does happen, in a calm and mature matter.
Lol, send the terrorists families who commited the acts gift certificates to their favorite restaurant with a notice:

"Sorry for putting our buildings in front of your planes"
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

Erkut.hv wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

And then deal with terrorist activity, when it does happen, in a calm and mature matter.
Lol, send the terrorists families who commited the acts gift certificates to their favorite restaurant with a notice:

"Sorry for putting our buildings in front of your planes"
You obviously aren't capable of proper debate. What kind of childish response is that? WHat age are you?

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-12 09:01:58)

Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6947|San Francisco
I wish more people would realize that going to war against a political concept is absolutely futile.  To rid the world of terrorism, you'd first have to rid the world of everything that creates terrorism, i.e., politics, religion, differing social values, borders, etc...
Ajax_the_Great1
Dropped on request
+206|6900

Erkut.hv wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?
So turning a blind eye to the problem will make it go away?

I'm asking when will people wake up to the fact that there are people out there who want to kill you.

Not because of anything you have done. Simply because you are not one of them.

Think what you want, believe whatever they tell you. At the end of the day, they want to kill you. There is no easier way to put it. You do not think or act like them, so in the end, you are an infidel, slated for death by the hands of the holy warriors.

To think anything else is insanity.
Wow, you almost quoted team america. Creators of South Park FT+1
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

alienating millions more people by blowing the shit out of their countries.

When will people wake up to this?
So turning a blind eye to the problem will make it go away?

I'm asking when will people wake up to the fact that there are people out there who want to kill you.

Not because of anything you have done. Simply because you are not one of them.

Think what you want, believe whatever they tell you. At the end of the day, they want to kill you. There is no easier way to put it. You do not think or act like them, so in the end, you are an infidel, slated for death by the hands of the holy warriors.

To think anything else is insanity.
Wow, you almost quoted team america. Creators of South Park FT+1
LOL
Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6988|California

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Wow, you almost quoted team america. Creators of South Park FT+1
F--- yeah!

And to Cameron, I am 12 and live with my mom. Neither is true, but that's what you'd like to hear. Truth is, we see things diferently, so we can't have a debate.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7090
The Nazi's were a " political concept " as was Communism, secession, etc. It  seemed to work out well with a sense of history, backbone and guts applied to it. Pray it does again as its not me and my kind they have a real issue with. If they did, I could handle them when they came, With a guy like Gunslinger or Lowing at my side. They are not Dumb, I can guarantee you they would seek easier prey. They would not have to look far to find it either I suspect.

Last edited by Horseman 77 (2006-06-12 09:21:08)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

Erkut.hv wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Wow, you almost quoted team america. Creators of South Park FT+1
F--- yeah!

And to Cameron, I am 12 and live with my mom. Neither is true, but that's what you'd like to hear. Truth is, we see things diferently, so we can't have a debate.
It's not so much that - I just wonder why you never counter with a rational argument. Give me something that I can say 'I agree with that' or 'I disagree with that' - you generally just spout shit.

Actually: Erkut - in 200 words or less tell me how you would rid the world of terrorism once and for all. Please be rational.

PS Team America is hilarious - a brilliant parody of the gung ho diplomacy exercised by the current US adminstration. South Park crew are genius.

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-12 09:22:58)

Erkut.hv
Member
+124|6988|California

CameronPoe wrote:

Erkut.hv wrote:

Ajax_the_Great1 wrote:

Wow, you almost quoted team america. Creators of South Park FT+1
F--- yeah!

And to Cameron, I am 12 and live with my mom. Neither is true, but that's what you'd like to hear. Truth is, we see things diferently, so we can't have a debate.
It's not so much that - I just wonder why you never counter with a rational argument. Give me something that I can say 'I agree with that' or 'I disagree with that' - you generally just spout shit.

Actually: Erkut - in 200 words or less tell me how you would rid the world of terrorism once and for all. Please be rational.
1. I can only count to 198

2. I am at work, so it'll have to wait.

Short answer: A nuke and a note. Them or us, I say us.
-F8-Scotch
Member
+43|6823
What ever happened to "speak softly and carry a big stick"? Teddy Rosevelt Certainly had some good ideas for the future. It seems like we act more in a manner of "yell as loud as you can, swing at whatever moves".

Nazism was more of a ideological goal than political realization. Radical Islam is also the ideological aspirations based on a strict creed of Islam and bolstered by the distinct differences in Muslim and American cultures which leads to extreme chaos.

Multi-Culturalism is not a new concept, nor is it a bad concept. Learning to live together without cultural differnces getting in the way is one anticipated result of American culture. Should we revert to singular national identities with prejudices towards outsiders who aren't "like the rest of us"? It's silly to think that the future is going to be devoid of national interaction and global communities. It's practically already there. The author of this piece sounds afraid of dealing with the consequences of multiculturalization on a global scale so instead he offers the suggestion of stricter responses. Containment of terror while attempting to bridge the Islam-West divide offers the best method of surviving this recent spat of international terrorism. We can't wipe out Islam yet we can't ignore it.

Scotch
Havazn
Member
+39|6947|van.ca
First of all, I have to say, what the hell do you care what our country does on our foreign policy? If we choose not to support your war in Iraq, so be it. We have no justification, made up or factual, to join in your "reconstruction". Secondly, we dont HAVE the numbers of troops to even successfully make a difference even if we did choose to support you. We call ourselvers a nation of peacekeepers because that is what we use our armed forces for, not because we send more than any other nation.
Rygar
Canucklehead
+69|6899|Nova Scotia

Havazn wrote:

First of all, I have to say, what the hell do you care what our country does on our foreign policy? If we choose not to support your war in Iraq, so be it. We have no justification, made up or factual, to join in your "reconstruction". Secondly, we dont HAVE the numbers of troops to even successfully make a difference even if we did choose to support you. We call ourselvers a nation of peacekeepers because that is what we use our armed forces for, not because we send more than any other nation.
Even though 'we' have gone to Afghanistan in support.  Seems this might have been overlooked.
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6809

Rygar wrote:

Havazn wrote:

First of all, I have to say, what the hell do you care what our country does on our foreign policy? If we choose not to support your war in Iraq, so be it. We have no justification, made up or factual, to join in your "reconstruction". Secondly, we dont HAVE the numbers of troops to even successfully make a difference even if we did choose to support you. We call ourselvers a nation of peacekeepers because that is what we use our armed forces for, not because we send more than any other nation.
Even though 'we' have gone to Afghanistan in support.  Seems this might have been overlooked.
Afghanistan was far more of a legitimate war than the Iraq war, which was illegitimate.
Havazn
Member
+39|6947|van.ca

CameronPoe wrote:

Rygar wrote:

Havazn wrote:

First of all, I have to say, what the hell do you care what our country does on our foreign policy? If we choose not to support your war in Iraq, so be it. We have no justification, made up or factual, to join in your "reconstruction". Secondly, we dont HAVE the numbers of troops to even successfully make a difference even if we did choose to support you. We call ourselvers a nation of peacekeepers because that is what we use our armed forces for, not because we send more than any other nation.
Even though 'we' have gone to Afghanistan in support.  Seems this might have been overlooked.
Afghanistan was far more of a legitimate war than the Iraq war, which was illegitimate.
Exactly, and there is even public debate whether or not we should continue our support in Afghanistan.

Just the audacity to criticize another country's actions and motives while your own country is in such political turmoil is beyond and comprehension I can muster.

Besides, we have got to be doing SOMETHING right if this 'alleged' terrorist plan is the only attack we have faced in the past 5 years. I like to think it has something to do with not provoking such attacks, its been working for us so far. I believe the only reason this 'plot' was to assasinate our prime minister was only due to his open co-operation with the U.S. Stephen Harper wants to nuzzle up against Bush and extend our foreign reach just as the U.S. has.
G3|Genius
Pope of BF2s
+355|6879|Sea to globally-cooled sea

CameronPoe wrote:

Afghanistan was far more of a legitimate war than the Iraq war, which was illegitimate.
This question is not meant to be fresh or rude.  I want to know why you think the Iraq war is illegitimate.  WMD's aside, because we did not find them.  or would you say that because there were no WMD then that makes the war illegitimate?

Please respond calmly, because I'm not trying to throw this in your face...I genuinely want to understand.
Havazn
Member
+39|6947|van.ca

G3|Genius wrote:

CameronPoe wrote:

Afghanistan was far more of a legitimate war than the Iraq war, which was illegitimate.
This question is not meant to be fresh or rude.  I want to know why you think the Iraq war is illegitimate.  WMD's aside, because we did not find them.  or would you say that because there were no WMD then that makes the war illegitimate?

Please respond calmly, because I'm not trying to throw this in your face...I genuinely want to understand.
Im not quite sure you can ask that question and say "WMD's aside"
SuperSlowYo
slow as you go
+124|6813|Canaduhhh.. West Toast
group hugs ftw....  the answer to lifes problems must be skin tight spandex type jumpsuits... they have them in all futuristic shows and ppl really seem to get along
Marconius
One-eyed Wonder Mod
+368|6947|San Francisco
The Iraq Invasion was illegitimate for various reasons, including but not limited to utilizing the scare tactic of claiming WMD presence even after the UN inspectors found nothing, twisting national sentiment to back support of the invasion by constantly citing Saddam's "aid" of the 9/11 perpetrators, the details of said invasion written out in the PNAC report drafted in 1996, the blatant disregard for the rest of the world's opinion on the matter, personal vendettas, and the fact that Iraq showed no form of agression towards the US itself since the liberation of Kuwait.

All of the public reasons that the Bush Administration has given for entering Iraq in the first place have all been now claimed as being false or based on nothing but lies.  By using false/edited/pretreated information, he was able to garner enough Congressional support to back him back in 2002-2003. 

There are so many reasons, but they are almost all lost to complete apathy under the guise of remaining "patriotic" in a Nationalistic sense, as if the US and it's government can do no wrong; as if everyone just wants to forgot/gloss over what was perpetrated and just ignore these evident truths.  Now we'll keep up the occupation until the resources are fully controlled by the interests of the US (one of the non-public aims that the US media fails to cover, but is seen in other news sources around the world) and we will lose more and more troops as the occupation drags on...

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