aardfrith
Δ > x > ¥
+145|7021

yerded wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200606 … LFO80.html
I say: charge them, hang them or free them. Mystery captivity is just wrong.
According to the BBC News report, these three men have been held since 2002 in isolation and have not been allowed access to lawyers.  They have had no contact with family and had no end in sight to their detention.

I am not surprised they took their own lives.  Who in their position wouldn't think of it?

The base commander has described the suicides as "acts of asymmetrical warfare" for bringing attention to the issue.  I guess that makes us all as guilty as they are so all of us who respond to this thread should expect to be detained by the CIA and chucked into Gitmo (with no lawyers, no contact from relatives, no hope of release/trial ever).

By the way, can anyone explain "asymmetrical warfare"?
RicardoBlanco
The English
+177|6797|Oxford

yerded wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200606 … LFO80.html
I say: charge them, hang them or free them. Mystery captivity is just wrong.
I don't normally agree with you but you're right on the money this time +1...
spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|6769|vancouver

kr@cker wrote:

most of them are not US citizens and are not protected by the US constitution (quick and speedy trial)
Well, I don't exactly know how far US legal jurisdiction reaches, but I'm guessing this isn't relevant.

kr@cker wrote:

as for the ones that are I don't know enough about their treatment to comment, and I doubt any of us do
So we basically have to take it on faith that nothing bad is going on.  In that kind of situation, it's not surprising that all the secrecy and legal maneuvering make people skeptical.

kr@cker wrote:

the point is that the US is attempting to err on the side of safety when it comes to a person turning out to be innocent, unfortunate, but if you can't come up with a safer alternative then that's what we gotta go with for now
Well, I'll assume we're only talking about the safety of the US...

These days, and especially in asymmetric conflict, perception is paramount.  Because of that, it's safer in the long run for the US to maintain a plausible moral superiority -- with the emphasis on the plausible.  It's not at all an easy thing to stick to, especially when captured US troops, among others, can't expect much mercy, but that's the terrorists' game.  If you play by their rules, you lose.

On top of that, there's too much global interconnectivity to properly "manage" media and world opinion the way we might like to.  At some point, the US government has to make sure it really is putting its money where its mouth is, re: freedom, justice, etc. or risk alienating all the people who think those words mean something.  And they won't necessarily remember which administration alienated them.

Anyway, I like America and I wouldn't bother arguing if I didn't.  I just hope the day never comes when Canada has to unleash teh nuclear grizzly strike on our closest friend and neighbour.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|7000|PNW

Bubbalo wrote:

TrollmeaT wrote:

These guys killed american troops, let them rot forever.
Falsely accused prisoners is always a terrible thing, which is why anyone that had to do time unjustly should be compenstated for the rest of their lives.
What makes American troops so special?
The fact that they have more vehicles, supplies, and cash. Might makes right. Like it or not, the world is as Machiavellian as that.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

the_heart_attack wrote:

lowing wrote:

If you have never heard of that expression then tough.look it up.
who wouldnt have heard of it.

lowing wrote:

the war in Iraq was approved by the UN in 1990.
what about in 2001????
2001 is a continuation of the same conflict I already said that.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

easy-skanking wrote:

lowing wrote:

easy-skanking wrote:

we never declared war on iraq.. iraq is a conflict

i agree 100% that bush and people saying 9/11 exscuses is tired however gitmo is a place to put the extremists and im relativly confident that 99% of them fit that term.
not really sure what the relevance of that is...... but yes i agree with the second part.
pow=prisoner of war ..no war ? no pow..

out of curiosity i watched that road to gitmo

wow what a scary world we live in where all you have to do to be thrown in gitmo is hear a war is going on, decide to take a vacation there, and then hang out in the epicenter of one side of that war

my grandfather had that SAME exact problem in 1942 he was just hanging around so he decided to visit germany, he went to berlin, and kicked it with hitler than bam hes in jail.

besides all the other shit they did that was stupid put on top of that when they crossed the border they claimed bombs were going off around them. if thats not a 100% clue to go back the way you came i dont know what is. yet they decided to keep going and stay for weeks..
You said "Wow, what a scary world we live in where all you have to do to be thrown in gitmo is hear there is a war on."......Yeah except I think what is really scary is getting on a bus just to have it blown up, or getting on a plane just to fly into a building, or walking through my town and being exposed to some biological agent.

You yourself said that Gitmo was full of "extremists" I agree with that. What all of these bleeding heart liberals fail to understand is extreme circumstances call for extreme measures. I do not forget the fact that America has not been attacked again since 911. For me, that is all that matters.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sorry bubbalo i already PM'ed you as to how I feel about your opinions...............When you actually go out in the real world and fend for yourself. you might have something I could be interested in hearing. At least it will be YOUR expeirences we are talking about and not what you heard
You still don't get it, do you?  If we debate based on personal experience, we ignore a whole wealth of knowledge called HISTORY.  It's this magical thing that chronicles the events of the world since we were able to record it.  Because, funnily enough, there was a time before you were born.  Besides which, as I have said previously, there are exceptions to every rule, and you only know a story from your point of view.  But then, your view does work awfully nicely, as it allows you to exclude pretty much all comparison.  Of course, it also prevents you from talking on this issue, as you haven't been a terrorist or the victim of a terrorist attack.  Bad luck, try again next time.
What I said I in PM I meant in  general terms, not specifically about any one issue. You take on a liberal persona. Well that is fine, all I am saying is wait until you have a job, pay bills, work hard for a living, have a mortgage, kids, and actually contribute to your society before you tell others about what is right and what is wrong politcally.

As far being affected by the 911 attacks, no, I was not personally harmed. I work an airline and I took it personally when I saw the events of 911. I can't say however I wasn't affected. It affected my country, my countrymen, my stability at the airline. I don't like that terrorism is and has been the number 1 news story in our country for 5 years now. I am sick of it I know a lot of people that lost their jobs as a result of 911. I didn't know anyone on the planes but some were friends of my friends. that itself was close enough to home for me.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Spark wrote:

lowing wrote:

the_heart_attack wrote:

the_heart_attack wrote:

with that statement sadly for yourself you have removed any shred of credibility you ever would have had on here, and proved how ignorant you really are.
and you combat that with ducks?

yes your right it is a war, its bushes war on his own credibility and thats about it.
If you have never heard of that expression then tough.look it up.

the war in Iraq was approved by the UN in 1990. the action over there now is a continuation of what was started and not finished 15 years ago. It was halted because a cease fire had been agreed to ( the UN resolutions). I raq broke the resolutions for 8 years and thus hostilities once again commenced.

the Afghan war is ours we were attacked and we will defend..No appologies
Except you ignored what he said. The Afghan war 'ended' 4 years ago.
really??, I missed that in all the papers, see I thought a war was over when a surrender was declared and a peace treaty signed. Stability of the region follows, and our troops come home.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

BN wrote:

lowing wrote:

will hold a grudge over those that are responsible, those that financed it, those that cheered when it happened and those that defended it. I will also hold my grudge against all of you that think we should just get over it.
Well why don’t you hold your president accountable for it? It happened while he was “in charge”. 911 is a criminal dereliction of duty from your commander in chief.

Why not start with asking your prez these questions:

1. Was NORAD aware of the four hijacked planes veering off course even before being reported by the FAA? If not, please explain why NORAD, which monitors 7000 flights a day, was unable to track the four aberrant flights.
2. At precisely what time was NORAD notified of each plane being hijacked? What was their response?
3. Who determined from which bases the F-16s should be scrambled? Why were fighter jets scrambled from such distant bases such as Langley Base in Va. instead of Andrews Air Force Base, a mere 10 miles from the Pentagon? Who were the pilots of these F-16s?
4. Why weren’t the jets able to intercept the hijacked planes if they were airborne within eight minutes of notification? What was their airspeed?
5. It is reported that there were two F-15s off the coast of Long Island while Flights 11 and 175 were in the air. If there were indeed fighters off Long Island, why weren’t they diverted to investigate Flights 11 and 175? Were any other military planes flying routine missions on the morning of September 11th which could have responded?
6. Why did NORAD wait until after the second plane hit the WTC to try and prevent possible further attacks? Why weren’t the fighter jets that tailed flights 11 and 175 as they crashed into New York’s WTC, immediately rerouted to intercept flights 77 or 93, before they crashed into the Pentagon and Pennsylvania?
Boy, you sure do watch alot of internet videos don't ya

911 was planned under Clintons watch pal, Bush just inherited it.

the confusion that was present during the attacks is completely understandable. After everything was starting to become clear the govt. shifted into gear and in a matter of a few hours had 1000's of airplanes back on the ground without incident. Unlike Clinton, who made our country appear weak in the face of the world, Bush took a stand and is fighting back, and we have not been attacked since.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Spearhead wrote:

lowing wrote:

BN wrote:


This war is not defined. It is a “war in terror". Terror has existed since Jesus was in short pants and terror will continue until the end of time. When does it end? 10, 20, 50 years?

So how long do you keep these people without trials?
POWs don't get trials.....they were caught in combat and are POW's regardless of what the PC machine says.
Great, then you can accuse someone of "terrorism" and basically have them locked up for the rest of their lives.  And because it's not our business to know about it, who's going to know if innocent lives are being taken?

As a government, you've got to define a POW from a terrorist.  I couldn't care less about the terrorists who are captured, but when we lose track of the process the system was designed on, innocent people will be victimized.
I already know how many innocent lives were taken, about 3000 when all of this was started. These times we live in call for extreme action. I give the govt. a lot of latitude when it comes to the safety of our nation and its people. I do not want to see another attack. Bottom line.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

spastic bullet wrote:

lowing wrote:

I read the link above and all that is, is an attempt at PC to shut you enemy combatant sympathizers up. ... [the detainees] are POW's regardless of what the PC machine says
First, I'll decide who I sympathize with.

Second, do you think the State Department cares what I or anybody on this board thinks?  Enough to go to the trouble of making -- as you point out -- a distinction without a difference such as "they're not POWs" for we mere commoners' benefit, or to shut us up?

It's so they can still claim with a semi-straight face that the US respects international law.  Which comes in handy when you don't want the entire world to believe you'll just invade whoever the fuck you want, whenever the fuck you feel like it.
i guess the message is pretty much clear now. If you attack us, we will come after you. I can understand the mixed signals that were given off during the Clinton years though.

i know you will decide who you will sympathize with, you have made that abundantly clear.

Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 04:43:44)

VaNiSh
Banned
+18|6917
well at least they did it on thier own instead of waiting for Bush to do it right before he got out of office
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

aardfrith wrote:

yerded wrote:

http://apnews.myway.com//article/200606 … LFO80.html
I say: charge them, hang them or free them. Mystery captivity is just wrong.
According to the BBC News report, these three men have been held since 2002 in isolation and have not been allowed access to lawyers.  They have had no contact with family and had no end in sight to their detention.

I am not surprised they took their own lives.  Who in their position wouldn't think of it?

The base commander has described the suicides as "acts of asymmetrical warfare" for bringing attention to the issue.  I guess that makes us all as guilty as they are so all of us who respond to this thread should expect to be detained by the CIA and chucked into Gitmo (with no lawyers, no contact from relatives, no hope of release/trial ever).

By the way, can anyone explain "asymmetrical warfare"?
Awwwwwwwww, the poor things didn't get a lawyer?? and have been held in isolation without knowing which way East is???

3000 victims didn't get due process either before the remaining pieces of them ( if there was even that) got thrown into a box and buried. It all boils down to why any of this has happened in the first place, and you know my opinion as to when that was.
Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

lowing wrote:

Awwwwwwwww, the poor things didn't get a lawyer?? and have been held in isolation without knowing which way East is???

3000 victims didn't get due process either before the remaining pieces of them ( if there was even that) got thrown into a box and buried. It all boils down to why any of this has happened in the first place, and you know my opinion as to when that was.
Ooooooooh! This is fun!  I knew this guy who was killed for no reason.  That means I get to kill you!  Sweet!
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

lowing wrote:

Awwwwwwwww, the poor things didn't get a lawyer?? and have been held in isolation without knowing which way East is???

3000 victims didn't get due process either before the remaining pieces of them ( if there was even that) got thrown into a box and buried. It all boils down to why any of this has happened in the first place, and you know my opinion as to when that was.
Ooooooooh! This is fun!  I knew this guy who was killed for no reason.  That means I get to kill you!  Sweet!
Sure ya can, if your mother will let ya out after the street lights come on....go outside and play boy.

Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 05:49:28)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

lowing wrote:

Sure ya can, if your mother will let ya out after the street lights come on....go outside and play boy.
Yet again, when faced with an argument that you cannot dispute, you result to petty insults.  Congratulations.

lowing wrote:

What I said I in PM I meant in  general terms, not specifically about any one issue. You take on a liberal persona. Well that is fine, all I am saying is wait until you have a job, pay bills, work hard for a living, have a mortgage, kids, and actually contribute to your society before you tell others about what is right and what is wrong politcally.
By that logic I could tell you that your opinion is invalid because you have never fought injustice on a large scale,  unlike people such as Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.  If you must rely on taking a "What do you know" stance, and cannot win an argument based on logic and factual analysis, you're probably wrong.  As to the PM being meant in general terms, here you make it very specific.  I'm a little curious as to how having kids and paying bills makes you more aware of the situation re terrorists.  I'm also a little curious as to if that's you logic, how you used the same line with Marconius, who does pay bills et al.

lowing wrote:

As far being affected by the 911 attacks, no, I was not personally harmed. I work an airline and I took it personally when I saw the events of 911. I can't say however I wasn't affected. It affected my country, my countrymen, my stability at the airline. I don't like that terrorism is and has been the number 1 news story in our country for 5 years now. I am sick of it I know a lot of people that lost their jobs as a result of 911. I didn't know anyone on the planes but some were friends of my friends. that itself was close enough to home for me.
Uh-huh.  But you weren't actually in the building, or on the aeroplanes.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Bubbalo - I wish I could respond, however, your comments are out of context.  Simply, they make no sense.
So, basically you can't respond so you're going to attempt to say my points are irrelevant?  Not so.  You made 2 points:

1)  You have an obligation to seek justice for those who died

2)  Emotion should not determine the response

The context was the attacks made on September 11th by extremist Muslim terrorists on a number of sites, and the response.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Just for the fun of it I'll respond to the second quote since you are attempting to draw an analogy of a point: 
Incorrect in the case of 9/11 of which I believe you are referring to.  Actually there was no promise of military force after the attack.  Factually it was said that America would defend itself and bring the perpetrators to justice {seems like logic to me considering no one knew who actually attacked us at that horrible moment}.  Later, once the facts came out of who did this cowardly act the threat of military force was stated as an option {no one knew at the time if it was another country or group that did this...}.
Really?

George Bush, 11 Sept 2001 wrote:

Our military is powerful, and it's prepared...........We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbour them
That sounds like a threat to me.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

And yes Bubbalo, it's a known human trait to be angered after receiving news that thousands of innocent people have been slaughtered.
Just the same as it is a human trait to feel sympathy for those who suffer, and seek justice and fair treatment of all.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

However, in this case the professionals and people in the know responded, not reacted, appropriately to the matter as best as anyone could and should have done.
Which is why they're holding people without proving that they've committed any crime?

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Kaboom.
You do know your name is spelled wrong?

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-06-11 06:36:56)

spastic bullet
would like to know if you are on crack
+77|6769|vancouver

lowing wrote:

spastic bullet wrote:

lowing wrote:

I read the link above and all that is, is an attempt at PC to shut you enemy combatant sympathizers up. ... [the detainees] are POW's regardless of what the PC machine says
First, I'll decide who I sympathize with.

Second, do you think the State Department cares what I or anybody on this board thinks?  Enough to go to the trouble of making -- as you point out -- a distinction without a difference such as "they're not POWs" for we mere commoners' benefit, or to shut us up?

It's so they can still claim with a semi-straight face that the US respects international law.  Which comes in handy when you don't want the entire world to believe you'll just invade whoever the fuck you want, whenever the fuck you feel like it.
i guess the message is pretty much clear now. If you attack us, we will come after you.
Do you think that's the message people are not getting?  That if would-be attackers were only aware of the US' willingness to respond to attacks, they would think twice?  On what planet do most or even some people think it unlikely that the US will respond to an attack?  The question is whether they can appropriately limit that response.  Feel free to continue to ignore my actual points and drop inane non sequiturs instead.

lowing wrote:

I can understand the mixed signals that were given off during the Clinton years though.
I don't doubt it -- you seem quite fluent in mixed-signalese.

lowing wrote:

i know you will decide who you will sympathize with, you have made that abundantly clear.
You say that like it's a bad thing!  Who should I let decide my sympathies for me?  Or maybe you meant to insinuate that I have decided to side "with the terrists", since I haven't sided with you.  See, the possibilities are roughly as retarded as each other, making it hard to tell which one you meant.

lowing wrote:

It all boils down to why any of this has happened in the first place, and you know my opinion as to when that was.
D00d, you're all over the place as to when that was.  9/11?  1990?  The Big Bang?  Consistency can win you arguments.  Continually shifting your view to suit the moment makes people wonder if you're dishonest or just not too bright.

I myself am choosing to believe you're just spreading yourself too thin to really give each post much thought.  You're welcome.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

spastic bullet wrote:

lowing wrote:

spastic bullet wrote:


First, I'll decide who I sympathize with.

Second, do you think the State Department cares what I or anybody on this board thinks?  Enough to go to the trouble of making -- as you point out -- a distinction without a difference such as "they're not POWs" for we mere commoners' benefit, or to shut us up?

It's so they can still claim with a semi-straight face that the US respects international law.  Which comes in handy when you don't want the entire world to believe you'll just invade whoever the fuck you want, whenever the fuck you feel like it.
i guess the message is pretty much clear now. If you attack us, we will come after you.
Do you think that's the message people are not getting?  That if would-be attackers were only aware of the US' willingness to respond to attacks, they would think twice?  On what planet do most or even some people think it unlikely that the US will respond to an attack?  The question is whether they can appropriately limit that response.  Feel free to continue to ignore my actual points and drop inane non sequiturs instead.

lowing wrote:

I can understand the mixed signals that were given off during the Clinton years though.
I don't doubt it -- you seem quite fluent in mixed-signalese.

lowing wrote:

i know you will decide who you will sympathize with, you have made that abundantly clear.
You say that like it's a bad thing!  Who should I let decide my sympathies for me?  Or maybe you meant to insinuate that I have decided to side "with the terrists", since I haven't sided with you.  See, the possibilities are roughly as retarded as each other, making it hard to tell which one you meant.

lowing wrote:

It all boils down to why any of this has happened in the first place, and you know my opinion as to when that was.
D00d, you're all over the place as to when that was.  9/11?  1990?  The Big Bang?  Consistency can win you arguments.  Continually shifting your view to suit the moment makes people wonder if you're dishonest or just not too bright.

I myself am choosing to believe you're just spreading yourself too thin to really give each post much thought.  You're welcome.
I am not all over the place on this and never have been.. 1990 war with Iraq,,,,,,2001 war with the taliban.I have never said anything to the contrary.

you and Bubbalo want to lay a black and white template on very fluid events. I maintain whatever my country has to do to protect its citizens I will support. If that means taking pre-emptive measures against our enemies so be it. Sorry ya hate that, but I sleep quite well at night.

i won't respond to the rest of your rubbish as it is not worth it.
lowing
Banned
+1,662|6880|USA

Bubbalo wrote:

lowing wrote:

Sure ya can, if your mother will let ya out after the street lights come on....go outside and play boy.
Yet again, when faced with an argument that you cannot dispute, you result to petty insults.  Congratulations.

lowing wrote:

What I said I in PM I meant in  general terms, not specifically about any one issue. You take on a liberal persona. Well that is fine, all I am saying is wait until you have a job, pay bills, work hard for a living, have a mortgage, kids, and actually contribute to your society before you tell others about what is right and what is wrong politcally.
By that logic I could tell you that your opinion is invalid because you have never fought injustice on a large scale,  unlike people such as Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.  If you must rely on taking a "What do you know" stance, and cannot win an argument based on logic and factual analysis, you're probably wrong.  As to the PM being meant in general terms, here you make it very specific.  I'm a little curious as to how having kids and paying bills makes you more aware of the situation re terrorists.  I'm also a little curious as to if that's you logic, how you used the same line with Marconius, who does pay bills et al.

lowing wrote:

As far being affected by the 911 attacks, no, I was not personally harmed. I work an airline and I took it personally when I saw the events of 911. I can't say however I wasn't affected. It affected my country, my countrymen, my stability at the airline. I don't like that terrorism is and has been the number 1 news story in our country for 5 years now. I am sick of it I know a lot of people that lost their jobs as a result of 911. I didn't know anyone on the planes but some were friends of my friends. that itself was close enough to home for me.
Uh-huh.  But you weren't actually in the building, or on the aeroplanes.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Bubbalo - I wish I could respond, however, your comments are out of context.  Simply, they make no sense.
So, basically you can't respond so you're going to attempt to say my points are irrelevant?  Not so.  You made 2 points:

1)  You have an obligation to seek justice for those who died

2)  Emotion should not determine the response

The context was the attacks made on September 11th by extremist Muslim terrorists on a number of sites, and the response.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Just for the fun of it I'll respond to the second quote since you are attempting to draw an analogy of a point: 
Incorrect in the case of 9/11 of which I believe you are referring to.  Actually there was no promise of military force after the attack.  Factually it was said that America would defend itself and bring the perpetrators to justice {seems like logic to me considering no one knew who actually attacked us at that horrible moment}.  Later, once the facts came out of who did this cowardly act the threat of military force was stated as an option {no one knew at the time if it was another country or group that did this...}.
Really?

George Bush, 11 Sept 2001 wrote:

Our military is powerful, and it's prepared...........We will make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbour them
That sounds like a threat to me.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

And yes Bubbalo, it's a known human trait to be angered after receiving news that thousands of innocent people have been slaughtered.
Just the same as it is a human trait to feel sympathy for those who suffer, and seek justice and fair treatment of all.

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

However, in this case the professionals and people in the know responded, not reacted, appropriately to the matter as best as anyone could and should have done.
Which is why they're holding people without proving that they've committed any crime?

AAFCptKabbom wrote:

Kaboom.
You do know your name is spelled wrong?
the attacks did affect me and the rest of our nation.  Maybe when you go out and invest into something, you will have something to loose and want it protected. then maybe you will change your views.

if it is an insult to state the fact that you are a kid, and really have not done a thing for yourself. I am sorry. But non the less it is a fact. I am simply stating that WHEN you are old enough to go out into the world and face it you might look at it differently.

Last edited by lowing (2006-06-11 08:25:02)

Bubbalo
The Lizzard
+541|6790

lowing wrote:

the attacks did affect me and the rest of our nation.  Maybe when you go out and invest into something, you will have something to loose and want it protected. then maybe you will change your views.
But you didn't experience them.  They affected just about everyone.

lowing wrote:

if it is an insult to state the fact that you are a kid, and really have not done a thing for yourself. I am sorry. But non the less it is a fact. I am simply stating that WHEN you are old enough to go out into the world and face it you might look at it differently.
You know what?  Fuck you.  You know nothing about my life, you know nothing about me, you know nothing about what I have experienced.  The difference between you and me has nothing to do with experience, it has to do with morals.  You consider it morally acceptable to screw over hundreds of people for your benefit, and not spare a thought.  I don't.  I know that it has nothing to do with experience, because my father, and my mother, and my grandparents, and my siblings, and many of others whom I know who are older than me, and many of them older than you, feel the same.  It's about a core choice.  You choose to fuck everyone over, to not give a damn about what consequences your actions might have, to view those who make attacks on your country and your people as less than human.  I don't.  I choose to look at them as people's sons and daughters, and husbands and wives, and brothers and sisters.  And I choose to ask why.  And if it's really is a bad thing to want to help those who would attack me because I recognise that their plight is genuine, then I go to hell in the knowledge that at least I tried, and no matter what anyone says about how effective I was, they cannot call me heartless.  They cannot say I was ignorant.  And they cannot say that I lacked character.  From the sounds of it, the same cannot be said of you.  And that makes me sad too.  To think that there are humans who would rather kill others, and opress others, so as not to sacrifice their own comfort, and then blind themselves to the world.  And yet, for all that I think you are immoral, I would never call you less than human.  And that, right there, is the difference between you and me.  I would rather sacrifice my comfort, and if need be my life, for the right of innocent people I will never know to be free.  If running Guantanamo Bay in a legal manner means I'll be killed tommorrow, fine.  I'll die with no regrets.
Spearhead
Gulf coast redneck hippy
+731|6918|Tampa Bay Florida

lowing wrote:

Spearhead wrote:

lowing wrote:

POWs don't get trials.....they were caught in combat and are POW's regardless of what the PC machine says.
Great, then you can accuse someone of "terrorism" and basically have them locked up for the rest of their lives.  And because it's not our business to know about it, who's going to know if innocent lives are being taken?

As a government, you've got to define a POW from a terrorist.  I couldn't care less about the terrorists who are captured, but when we lose track of the process the system was designed on, innocent people will be victimized.
I already know how many innocent lives were taken, about 3000 when all of this was started. These times we live in call for extreme action. I give the govt. a lot of latitude when it comes to the safety of our nation and its people. I do not want to see another attack. Bottom line.
So you are willing to have Jews, Muslims, and other ethnic minorities sent to Gitmo, all in the sake of freedom?  I know they're not being sent their now, but this is very, very similar to the situations and events in Germany, in the 1930's.  It's funny how you can draw so many parallels between 9/11, and Pearl Harbor, and yet you cannot draw any parallels to the United States today and Germany in the 1930's.

9/11 and Pearl Harbor were very different events.  Yes, they were both surpize attacks, and were both very horrible and unexpected, but, there were also many differences.  One is, the extreme majority of casualties at Pearl Harbor were military, no civilians.  9/11 was obviously an attack on the civilians of America, and it was a message to us that this was NOT the same event which happened in 1941.  9/11 was conducted by a group of 17 young, relatively untrained men, while Pearl Harbor was an attack conducted by trained pilots, from fighters who posed a military threat to our country. 

Believe what you want, but don't say that Pearl Harbor and 9/11 had "many parallels".  In reality, they only have 1 or 2.

The basic freedoms that you and I are expressing right now are protected by in the courts of the US.  If you don't have any courts, no system of process, no limitations on torture and human rights, when will it stop?  Who's there to make sure it won't happen?  In gitmo, I mean.

If they are POW's, they are protected by the Geneva Convention.  Which they are not.  So in reality, they are criminals of other countries being held without a way to defend themselves in court.

Last edited by Spearhead (2006-06-11 11:18:39)

CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6784
I'm with Spearhead on the sinister similarity between Guantanamo Bay and Nazi Concentration Camps. Who would have thought that 'the land of the free' would condone or endorse such inhumane treatment. To maintain the moral high ground that will afford you respect with allied nations and right-minded people the US cannot stoop to the level of their enemies. The existence of the camp is just one more reason for insurgents to 'take up arms' against the injustices 'arabs' or 'muslims' have suffered at the hands of USA/Israel.

PS I'm off to Cuba in September. Must get a photo at Guantanamo Bay!

Last edited by CameronPoe (2006-06-11 12:14:56)

kr@cker
Bringin' Sexy Back!
+581|6778|Southeastern USA
tell me what great injustices are being served at Club Gitmo that have anything to do with Auschwitz. Do we stick em in ovens when we get tired of clothing them? Do we gas the shower rooms cuz it's cheaper than maintaining physical hygiene? The only similarities is that it has a big ass perimeter and you can't escape. Guess what, it's a fucking prison, you don't wanna go, don't run around supporting terrorist groups with green armbands and ski masks on. Don't go to the middle of a terrorist hot spot and try to get in good with them "cuz I was curious about Jihaad!" Prison is not another term for 5 star hotel, this particular one is the highest security prison on the face of the planet (that we know of) and as such you don't get cable tv, excercise rooms, basketball courts, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You get prison!

I saw peewee herman molesting a toddler once....
See, it's easy to "say" things, I can say alot of things, "Oh baby, I'll never love anyone as much as I love you Beth....I mean Heather". I saw them throw a quran in a toilet, oohh they peed in the next room from where I keep my quran, no really trust me on this, these were heinous crimes in the face of humanity.
And so what if it's true, how does this compare to getting your fingernails pulled out with rusty pliers in say....North Korea. To compare this place to the historical gulags of the world is ludicrous, the worst part about the place is the fact that it's in Cuba. Sue mother nature.

you wanna see a real Cuban gulag, search out the words "Boniato Bay", this is where thousands of people end up after they disappear from the streets of Cuba for no apparent reason, other than you know wanting to be able to vote and stuff
CameronPoe
Member
+2,925|6784

kr@cker wrote:

tell me what great injustices are being served at Club Gitmo that have anything to do with Auschwitz. Do we stick em in ovens when we get tired of clothing them? Do we gas the shower rooms cuz it's cheaper than maintaining physical hygiene? The only similarities is that it has a big ass perimeter and you can't escape. Guess what, it's a fucking prison, you don't wanna go, don't run around supporting terrorist groups with green armbands and ski masks on. Don't go to the middle of a terrorist hot spot and try to get in good with them "cuz I was curious about Jihaad!" Prison is not another term for 5 star hotel, this particular one is the highest security prison on the face of the planet (that we know of) and as such you don't get cable tv, excercise rooms, basketball courts, and peanut butter and jelly sandwiches. You get prison!

I saw peewee herman molesting a toddler once....
See, it's easy to "say" things, I can say alot of things, "Oh baby, I'll never love anyone as much as I love you Beth....I mean Heather". I saw them throw a quran in a toilet, oohh they peed in the next room from where I keep my quran, no really trust me on this, these were heinous crimes in the face of humanity.
And so what if it's true, how does this compare to getting your fingernails pulled out with rusty pliers in say....North Korea. To compare this place to the historical gulags of the world is ludicrous, the worst part about the place is the fact that it's in Cuba. Sue mother nature.

you wanna see a real Cuban gulag, search out the words "Boniato Bay", this is where thousands of people end up after they disappear from the streets of Cuba for no apparent reason, other than you know wanting to be able to vote and stuff
I didn't say it was as bad as Auschwitz, I just said there were similarities. I see it as a contravention of the Geneva Convention and you can spin the 'enemy combatants' vs 'POWs' argument whatever way you want but any right-minded person knows that this is wrong. Detention without trial or POW rights means the US have ceded the moral high ground and have damaged their respectability and credibility.
Xietsu
Banned
+50|6785
I wouldn't recommend visiting Cuba...doesn't sound like too hip a place to visit.

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