BF2S Forums "Massacre" in Iraq by U.S. Troops

Most of you are missing the main point of this thread being that war is hell, and bad things happen, maybe they saw someone in one of the houses pick up a cell phone (a commonly used trigger), maybe someone ran after being told to "get down" in Iraqi (what do they call their language?), does anyone here seriously think that any US soldier would target a 4 year old and fire? Many of these were collateral damage. For a matter of perspective read Gunslingers post about SOP. Not everyone in the convoy can see it's an IED when it blows, when the truck your sitting in the back of gets hit up front it may as well be an RPG. Many of the IED attacks are followed immediately by AK fire, a few nades, then the terrorist (insurgent is a gross revisionist misnomer) scurries away. Shit happens, you want to blame someone, blame the terrorist that chose  to use the IED and place it in front of these homes, they are counting on knee jerk reactions like these to cause morale damage after the fact. That's why they like to hide in mosques, hospitals, schools and such. As this is an ongoing investigation many of the details are not released, and won't be until it's over and done with. My only fear is that the world media will do it's best to convict these soldiers from the comfort of their leather chairs and this will turn into a witch hunt where the US needs to find a scapegoat like Lindy Englund to throw to the dogs to get them to quit barking.

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-06-01 05:52:34)

Reports indicate the victims were in the surrounding area.  4 of them were students in a taxi, the taxi driver reportedly begging for mercy.  Sure, war is hell, but if you choose to join the army, and subsequently kill civilians (except accidently, and I can't believe, as stated before, that 24 people were accidently shot), there is no excuse.

Bubbalo wrote:

Reports indicate the victims were in the surrounding area.  4 of them were students in a taxi, the taxi driver reportedly begging for mercy.  Sure, war is hell, but if you choose to join the army, and subsequently kill civilians (except accidently, and I can't believe, as stated before, that 24 people were accidently shot), there is no excuse.

Fuck you little pussy, none of your posts have any more relevance here, if this had been posted by anyone else I would at least try to read it with an open mind, but it's by Bubbalo, I'm about to the point where I'm no longer going to acknowledge any more of your posts except to refer other readers to your posts in the "has anyone died in the service of your country" thread to illustrate to them why I have lost all respect for you. Better yet, get your own mother to read that thread, then she can PM me her phone # so I can call her (I'll gladly pay for it) and she can tell me what a wonderful, caring, thoughtful child she has, at which point I'll have to remind her that I'm talking about you, not your siblings. If I ever saw any child of mine write some shit like that I'd be questioned by child services and they'd be eating cheeseburgers through a straw. I wish to God I knew you were posting the same time I was writing that. You have already made your judgement without having full knowledge of the facts (again). As for the victims being in the surrounding area (duh), blame the terrorists that put the bomb in front of their house, as for the victims in the taxi cab, blame the terrorists that use taxis as bombs and transports, a massive media campaign has been ongoing in Iraq for years concerning the proper behavior when confronted by coalition forces, do you  have irrefutable proof that each and everyone of these people followed this procedure? Were you there? Have you seen every official transcript of military and civilian testimony? No? Fuck you little pussy, none of your posts have anymore relevance here.

yuck7777 wrote:

People are so quick to judge! . As we learned in Vietnam woman and children can be used by these sickos to blow up people. So lets not forget that be for we judge these men.

For those of you wondering, go look up bubbablow's posts on the "has anyone died in the service of your country" thread to see what a little shit he is. Impuning my dedication to my mother and tarnishing a thread meant to honor the lives of all KIA soldiers of all nations as a means to start a flamewar is beyond low and that's exactly what he did.

http://forums.bf2s.com/viewtopic.php?id=26452&p=1


another unsigned pussy neg for me to be proud of
"Today 09:31:06 -1 "Massacre" in Iraq by U.S. Troops ' tit'  "
wonder who that was, not really, i don't give a shit

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-06-01 06:34:19)

yuck7777 wrote:

People are so quick to judge! This is a war and these things will happen. Yes, its sad that kids die due to war. I'm sure the media sensationalized this story just like every other story because thats what sells. And of course all you leftys out there have already convicted these men. Its funny how we go out of are way to avoid civilian loss, But when something does happen the media will jump all over it and make it sound like an everyday event. I'm shore we lose a lot of men because we do this. As we learned in Vietnam woman and children can be used by these sickos to blow up people. So lets not forget that be for we judge these men.

yes, it is a war, but no, those things should not happen, and least not on the coalition side. How are you going to win the hearts and minds of Iraqis if you start shooting at civilians randomly ?
And no, I am not judging, am simply stating my opinion. But right now, it just doesn't look like these people died accidentally, don't you think ? The judging will be up to the court when then investigation has concluded.

Funny you bring up vietnam. 'cause if I remember correctly, the US had to acknowledge that this conflict could not be won and had to withdraw in the end.

Which is why most Americans seem to avoid vietnam comparisons.

B.Schuss wrote:

The judging will be up to the court when then investigation has concluded.

Heed your own words

though, as I said, I fear they may just end up looking fo scapegoats to shut the critics up, it seems the idiots in charge of military public relations will never realize that no matter of appeasement will ever satisfy theses critics.

Last edited by kr@cker (2006-06-01 06:53:58)

Bubbalo wrote:

If you play shoot first and ask questions later, this is what happens.  Based on what is known, specifically the fact that the claims the civilians weren't caught in crossfire come from within the military, and the fact that I find it hard to believe they shot enough bullets to kill 24 people and not one of them was an insurgent, there is little doubt in my mind that they killed people they knew were civilians.  And nothing excuses that.

Having said that, there is little doubt in my mind that higher ups in the military could have taken more action to prevent such incidents, and nothing excuses that.  Of course, I have little faith in the military to arrange justice.  It'll be another My Lai, they'll charge a few people, wait for the shitstorm to die down, and acquit them.  God bless America .

just like those reservists were aquitted over Abu Ghraib right......moron

B.Schuss wrote:

kr@cker wrote:

B.Schuss wrote:

The judging will be up to the court when then investigation has concluded.

Heed your own words

I always do. Which is why I pointed out the difference between stating my opinion and judgement.
At this point, everyone ( including yourself ) is just speculating on the few pieces of information we have gathered.

It may turn out that the killing of these 24 people was justified. But I have to tell you, I have my doubts that was the case.

I'm sorry, it seems your flipflopping back and forth between judgement and covering your butt, but this may be a matter of context as this is an international forum and communication sometimes suffers for diversity, if I misread you I apologize.

Spearhead wrote:

yerded wrote:

http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/4333/marlboro1tj.jpg
http://apnews.myway.com//article/200606 … 5IS02.html

I support our troops and I'm not sorry about it.

My heart breaks when I hear of deaths in Iraq whether or not they are American or not is beside the point; these are human tragedies. Yes, because I'm an American I am biased, but I speak now of combat troops in general;

     I give our GI's the unquestioning benefit of the doubt. These men face mortal danger everyday and normal rules and laws do not and should not apply. I thank all members of the military that are serving in Iraq and elsewhere for their service,  and from all our allied countries.

    Many so called civilian deaths are counted in Iraq. Many of these so called civilians were sporting an RPG or digging in a I.E.D when they were killed and I say FUCK EM! We are trying to bring a better life to these people and it will be a long hard bloody road, and many innocents will die. Ask a former Iraqi citizen how he/she feels about what we are doing before you pass judgment on these brave men involved in this nightmare.

     DO NOT listen to the likes of cowardly, treacherous maggots like John Murtha who constantly seek the muck to rake over our boys; if he was a good congressmen he would be seeing to it that there was no interference in the investigation. Instead that bloated piece of shit goes on the airways accusing our boys of murder. FUCK HIM AND ALL THOSE IN AMERICA WHO BETRAY OUR BOYS.

    Because we hold our own to a higher standard there will be a proper investigation and those deemed guilty by a court of law will be punished. Don't lose faith in the mission of freedom for these people; what? did we pick who could run in their elections?! NO! we allowed them to elect from their own and THAT IS A GOD DAMNED NOBLE CAUSE WORTH FIGHTING FOR.

    Those people most like died because "insurgence" ran into the house they were in. Case closed in my mind.

That's why NUTCASES like you shouldn't be in charge of OCCUPYING a country full of CIVILIANS.  We need ANTI-TERRORIST units, people, not NATIONAL GUARD TROOPS.

I would LOVE to see the Army and Marine Corps occupying YOUR city and treating YOU the same way, yerded.  SUCK IT.

We need people who KNOW how to fight TERRORISM.  A DUUUUHRRR?!!?! It's the WAR against TERRORISM!

Of COURSE I support the troops.  Who doesn't?  Honestly?  Can you find ONE American saying "Yeah, they DESERVED it!" I doubt it.  I think they're the wrong troops for the situation which were meant for a war which was over 3 years ago.  Bring em home.  Now.

Yerded, I think you're a fucking NUT.  You don't CARE about civilian deaths?  Are you insane?  Yeah, who cares, 20 thousand, 30 thousand, 100 thousand.  I don't care because I'm American and I believe in my troops and they're the ones fighting so Iraq can have elections and still be fucked up, because it's always been fucked up, THEY WEREN'T EVEN A COUNTRY until the British INVADED and turned it into a fucking COLONY. 

It's people like you that make me wonder WTF America has turned into.  LISTEN to yourself!  You're insane.

Look, I'm not calling them murderers.  I'm sure they reacted the same as anyone in their shoes would.  That's why we've got to get the fuck out of Iraq.  Do you GET IT?

No! I do NOT get YOU at all. I'm a patriot and your a moral panzy.
Of course I care; "My heart breaks when I hear of deaths in Iraq whether or not they are American or not is beside the point; these are human tragedies. Yes, because I'm an American I am biased, but I speak now of combat troops in general;"

Its just that I feel our guys lives are MORE important. And I'nm not sorry about anything I've posted here on this thread.

kr@cker (and several others):  If you post something on Debate and Serious Discussion *it will be debated and discussed*.  My point there was that for all your "Go America" rhetoric, you still placed the personal comfort of your mother and yourself over joining the army you so love.  If you didn't want me to point that out, don't talk about it.  As for impuning a thread for the KIA of all nations:  I don't have a whole lot of respect for members of a nations military.  They know the risks when they join, and many of the wars they fight in are immoral and illegal.  And if they don't know that when they join, they're stupid.

I also find it interesting that so many of you criticise my statements because we have no evidence yet.  If that's the case, why start a discussion?  The fact is, we do know that 24 civilians were killed for 0 insurgent deaths, which could mean many things, those that I can think of are:

1)  The soldiers are the worst shots in the world, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of a gun

2)  The soldiers are too dumb to tell the difference between a three year old and an insurgent, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of peace-keeping

3)  The soldiers had good aim, knew that their targets weren't insurgents, and shot them anyway.  They are murderers, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of freedom.

Feel free to add, I'm always open to new possibilities (apparently, unlike some people)

Oh, and I'll thank you to leave my mother out of it.  She would be dissapointed, I'm a little more right-wing than the rest of my family.

Last edited by Bubbalo (2006-06-01 08:18:12)

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

Bubbalo wrote:

If you play shoot first and ask questions later, this is what happens.  Based on what is known, specifically the fact that the claims the civilians weren't caught in crossfire come from within the military, and the fact that I find it hard to believe they shot enough bullets to kill 24 people and not one of them was an insurgent, there is little doubt in my mind that they killed people they knew were civilians.  And nothing excuses that.

Having said that, there is little doubt in my mind that higher ups in the military could have taken more action to prevent such incidents, and nothing excuses that.  Of course, I have little faith in the military to arrange justice.  It'll be another My Lai, they'll charge a few people, wait for the shitstorm to die down, and acquit them.  God bless America .

just like those reservists were aquitted over Abu Ghraib right......moron

Bubbalo wrote:

I don't have a whole lot of respect for members of a nations military.  They know the risks when they join, and many of the wars they fight in are immoral and illegal.  And if they don't know that when they join, they're stupid.

The implication of this is that soldiers should either make policy, or refuse to serve when they don't agree with that policy.  I have always said that I do not want the military to make policy.  Soldiers do not purpose their service when they choose to serve.  They go where they are told, and do what they are told.  For you to fail to understand or respect that shows a lack of understanding, or a tragic political bias.

Bubbalo wrote:

...we do know that 24 civilians were killed for 0 insurgent deaths, which could mean many things, those that I can think of are:

1)  The soldiers are the worst shots in the world, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of a gun

2)  The soldiers are too dumb to tell the difference between a three year old and an insurgent, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of peace-keeping

3)  The soldiers had good aim, knew that their targets weren't insurgents, and shot them anyway.  They are murderers, and should never be trusted with the responsibility of freedom.

As I indicated, another possibility is that they were being fired upon, but could only determine the general direction from which the fire was coming and not the exact spot.  This is, in my experience (which is not insignificant), common.

Your lack of sympathy for the troops is causing you to dismiss their point of view:  Your choce of options for their actions shows that you either are not interested in, or are incapable of, understanding what is really happening to troops over there every day.  If you consider what a soldier in Iraq lives with EVERY day, things become less clear, and the possibility that these men are not murdering monsters or complete idiots appears more likely.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-06-01 08:28:06)

whittsend wrote:

The implication of this is that soldiers should either make policy, or refuse to serve when they don't agree with that policy.  I have always said that I do not want the military to make policy.  Soldiers to not purpose their service when they choose to serve.  They go where they are told, and do what they are told.  For you to fail to understand or respect that shows a lack of understanding, or a tragic political bias.

If the bulk of your country's recent wars have been immoral and/or illegal, you are irresponsible in signing up.  By signing up, you agree that the types of wars that your country fights are not disagreeable to you.

whittsend wrote:

As I indicated, another possibility is that they were being fired upon, but could only determine the general direction from which the fire was coming and not the exact spot.  This is, in my experience (which is not insignificant), common.

Sure:
4)  Unable to ascertain the exact location of their opponents, the soldiers laying down a volume of fire sufficient to kill 24 people over a wide frontage.  Ammo is, apparently, cheap.  As is life.

whittsend wrote:

Your lack of sympathy for the troops is causing you to dismiss their point of view:  Your choce of options for their actions shows that you either are not interested in, or are incapable of, understanding what is really happening to troops over there every day.  If you consider what a soldier in Iraq lives with EVERY day, things become less clear, and the possibility that these men are not murdering monsters or complete idiots appears more likely.

They are getting shot at.  Sure.  But how many innocent Iraqis must be killed to protect them (the Iraqis)?

whittsend wrote:

*sigh*  I shouldn't be frustrated, because clearly you have never been in combat, but forgive me, I am.  The simple answer to your question is that 'some rounds' is an ironic understatement.  A US soldier is not trained to shoot 'a llttle bit.'

Which means that their superiors certainly bear some responsibility, I have never denied this.  But if they are trained to throw out large volumes of firepower without even ascertaining their targets, how can they call themselves soldiers?

whittsend wrote:

Didn't they convict an LTC recently?  If they are willing to do that (and I am personally surpised they did), looks to me like they are willing to go after the perps, root and branch.  Quite possibly a little overzealously in my personal opinion, but that is subjective.

There could not possible have been anyone in that prison unaware of what was going on.  And yet not all of them are jailed.

whittsend wrote:

RE: Gitmo.  What, specifically are you referring to?  I worked with many MPs who worked there, and from what they told me, it is like working under a microscope.  I don't think you will be able to come up with any real abuses there.  We all know the 'flushing the Koran' incedent was a fabrication.

The whole camp is an abuse of human rights.  And legalised too.