lowing
Banned
+1,662|6871|USA

Kniero wrote:

Kerry had concrete, logical responses and was an overall sensical man. George W. Bush can barely formulate a complex sentence without stumbling for over 10 seconds.

(P.S. To those who think Kerry would have withdrawn troops from Iraq, you are fucking insane and thoroughly retarded. Anyone in their right mind understood that, were our forces to leave in the middle of this war, the Middle-East would suffer greatly and radicalism would truly spread.)
you are absolutely correct......Kerry, like Al Gore, never would withdraw the troops from Afghanistan or Iraq.........because they never would have had the guts to send them over there after 911 to begin with.

Last edited by lowing (2006-03-14 18:34:09)

Mr.Pieeater
Member
+116|6844|Cherry Pie

topal63 wrote:

LOL

Debate and serious talk - are you sure?

Do you know how to frame a question into a serious one? Yes(?) No(?). . . I am thinking no.

First OFF - Kerry is not president; doesn't matter this far after the fact. . .

Second there is a lot of evidence of election tampering in both G.W. presidential wins,. as well as many other Republican wins. . . or do you NOT know who DIEBOLD Co. is (?); who runs it/is affiliated with it (?); how there are 2-sets of results; actual vote-site results are discarded (TRUE!) and not compared to the uploaded (2nd set) and potentially tampered results (!); and the history related to how (exit-)polling is done and election results are monitored - most likely NOT!

You generally framed the question as: "Why didn't Americans like Kerry (and vote for him) a reasonable/intelligent man when compared to Bush?"

1.) Mr.Pieeater’s post is a red-herring out of context response; nothing more than a rhetoric acquired response - pointless, thoughtless and even more stupid than I thought upon a second re-read of it - it requires no response.

2.) Many Americans DID vote for him (48.3% of the Votes-Cast; so-called official count), and exit-polls showed Kerry was the winner of the Presidential Election - so what happened? Between Midnight and the AM? When G.W. (50.7%) was declared the winner? The Diebold Election Results (where electronic machines were used of course) were uploaded (on the internet EVEN!) and the AT-SITE results were discarded (what a manipulation of the SYSTEM!). . . This is only
a FACT that the Average American is ignorant of (not because the information of such is available and truthful - it is; but); because the mainstream media is a JOKE, a mouthpiece for ONE-SIDED ideology. The media is supposed to be liberal - and allow all information in - a media that discards information is a failed source.

The strange facts are - Bush won the registered Democratic vote by as much 60%-80% in Counties where Diebold systems were used.

Here is some 2 year OLD NEWS for you:
“Election night, I'd been doing live election coverage for WDEV, one of the radio stations that carries my syndicated show, and, just after midnight, during the 12:20 a.m. Associated Press Radio News feed, I was startled to hear the reporter detail how Karen Hughes had earlier sat George W. Bush down to inform him that he'd lost the election. The exit polls were clear: Kerry was winning in a landslide. "Bush took the news stoically," noted the AP report. But then the computers reported something different AM. In several pivotal states. . . .
. . . But I agree with Fox's Dick Morris on this one, at least in large part. Wrapping up his story for The Hill, Morris wrote in his final paragraph, "This was no mere mistake. Exit polls cannot be as wrong across the board as they were on election night. I suspect foul play."

Google this if you want - learn something please (Kerry election results Diebold).

3.) The G.W. win over Gore was - basically the same. In fact the Majority of Americans DID NOT vote for G.W. in this Election. . . the win was an Electoral College manipulation of the system; at the hands a Republican insiders who manipulated the Florida results by discarding votes - and disenfranchising Americans.

At this point in History; the Orwellian (liberal) sounding words of past President Dwight D. Eisenhower's (a decorated military General, 2 term president, a Republican none-the-less) ring as - too true - and woefully as a prophecy fulfilled:

“. . . This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence--economic, political, even spiritual---is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or  unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist .  . .”

You live in a time - were influence - district gerrymandering - and manipulation of technology is more than possible - it is commonplace.
Granted you have a bit more background that me in their area considering you have a radio program, I won't try to argue with you.  But how about you give Bill O'Reily a call and get your @$$ torn apart by him...  You honestly think the Bush administration "fixed" the election?  From what you were saying, it is clear you are a liberal nut.  Everything you say is compelete against Bush.  If the Bush administration can fix an election, why can't Kerry's group of Democrats?  Oh wait, they are too busy smearing Bush and not coming up with crap as a political party.  Your 12am time-slot is pretty impressive!  WOW!  I mean, you must be making the big bucks!  AND OH MY GOD, you are Mr. Professional leaving a post of freaking videogame forum?  LOL, it is completely official, you do suck...

I'm glad I was number one though:

"1.) Mr.Pieeater’s post is a red-herring out of context response; nothing more than a rhetoric acquired response - pointless, thoughtless and even more stupid than I thought upon a second re-read of it - it requires no response."

But I'm only a 22 year old college student, whos major is not policits.  The stuff you are stating is probably true; however, data can be stated in a way that is in favor or against what we are talking about.  Your show must be a liberal show and definitely in the same path as the mainstream media...  Which is so liberal it is rediculous...  Maybe you should watch some Fox News, so you can copy them.  Then you would probably move into a different time-slot and not be a 40 year old posting things on a videogame forum... 

And a "second re-read" would technically be a 4th read... Since you were doing two re-reads...  A master of the English language like yourself shouldn't have to read my "pointless, thoughtless and stupid" statement 4 times, should you?

Have fun on your show, be sure to talk about me!  I know everyone is dying to know the big news from the Battlefield 2 forums...  What a news source! 

As the Japanese say, "Kutabare!"  Ask your Japanese affiliate station "Suka mai ballsa" for the translation.

AND YOUR STATS SUCK TOO...  YOUR WIN/LOSS AND KILL/DEATH ARE ABOUT AS GOOD AS A RED-HEADED-STEPCHILD WHO IS RETARTED...  Do all of your friends at work think you are cool?

Your obviously a tank-whore, but the only problem is you suck at it...

Last edited by Mr.Pieeater (2006-03-14 19:21:28)

whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA

topal63 wrote:

Often issues - hardly get a fair debate - in the climate of the current American political landscape. . .
Ok...

topal63 wrote:

It's all about false-pretenses, lobbying, sound-bytes, dumb-ing it down, pandering, etc. . .
Sure

topal63 wrote:

Elite: common vernacular usage from a right-wing ideological perspective = out of touch with the common joe = pandering.
Frankly, it has nothing to do with perspective, and everything to do with politicians enjoying activities and priveleges they would deny to their constituents.

topal63 wrote:

As far as being "Elite" - the truth is all of congress is "Elite" - every president is "Elite" - every super-rich person is "Elite" - all who share in holding the reigns of power are "Elite."  And each is out of touch in some form or the other once that perspective is gained.
If you are saying that the politicians are, in fact, the elite, I can hardly argue.  That is, in fact, the core of my complaint.  If you are saying that it is right and good that they set themselves up as uber-citizens, to whom the law does not apply, and with privileges they would deny to the rest of us, I'm going to have to disagree. 

The letter of the law, and the words of the framers of the Constitution clearly indicate that those who 'hold the reigns of power' are supposed to be no more than citizens who use their wisdom in the service of the body politic.  That the horrendous crop of self-serving, self aggrandising slime who hold office now prize power itself over the well being of their constituents is obvious as well.  Democrats, being those who openly seek to limit the ability of the populous to make 'dangerous' decisions, and favor the 'nanny' state are clearly the worst of the bunch.  Republicans, who claim to support a limited role for government and then spend as much as any big government liberal Democrat; are better only in that they are made uncomfortable by the rhetoric of Democrats, and thus surely see the evil in it.  They will speak no evil, but that does not stop them from practicing it.  If only they would put their money where their mouths are.  Unfortunately they are just as addicted to power, and in practice actually support, in all important aspects, the same policy agenda.

topal63 wrote:

Is G.W. a member of the Elite or the current pinnacle of such? Quoting the Bush-inator himself on the concept of the “elite” at a fund-raising dinner:
“. . . the people call you the elite…I call you my base!”
Sorry, you cannot appeal to my inner Republican partisan...because he is not there.  GWB is as bad as any, and probably worse than most.  But Kerry is worse still.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6864
name the last president you would not consider an elite
*ToRRo*cT|
Spanish Sniper-Wh0re
+199|6964|Malaga, España
Debate and serious talk....

but why are the poster googling around about kerry and copy the text and post it here...i think a debate is about your own thoughts not that of a website geez...

look Bush is a dumb ass monkey who cant even speak 1 line properly without making sense ''The War On Terror...errrhh...is caused by *Bush's brains ''OMFGROFCHOPPER WHAT DATE WAS IT!!! ERRRRRRRR 'WARNING HEAVY OVERLOAD' 9-...-9-9---11? ow yeah'' 9/11 was a mercyless attack on american citizens and will be.....euh...''Whispers to dick'' Psst...what where we going to do?'' Ow yeah....We will looking for the terrorist...''Brains again: Damn w00t teh fuck was his name....MmmmRRrrmmmmmm O..oo...Osama---Bin ....bin.....loading...no no no Laden yeah!!!    We will find Osama bin laden and we will bring justice to him....and the rest....is just as worse .... Kerry was maybe a lying prick...but i could at least understand him what he was talking about. although...neither did it made any sense...like i said ...wholelotta bullshit.

about bush again, google around for pix...and compare his FACE versus an Monkey's ass and you wouldnt see the difference.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6997

Mr.Pieeater wrote:

topal63 wrote:

LOL

Debate and serious talk - are you sure?

Do you know how to frame a question into a serious one? Yes(?) No(?). . . I am thinking no.

First OFF - Kerry is not president; doesn't matter this far after the fact. . .

<snipped>
Granted you have a bit more background that me in their area considering you have a radio program, I won't try to argue with you.  But how about you give Bill O'Reily a call and get your @$$ torn apart by him...  You honestly think the Bush administration "fixed" the election?  From what you were saying, it is clear you are a liberal nut.  Everything you say is compelete against Bush.  If the Bush administration can fix an election, why can't Kerry's group of Democrats?  Oh wait, they are too busy smearing Bush and not coming up with crap as a political party.  Your 12am time-slot is pretty impressive!  WOW!  I mean, you must be making the big bucks!  AND OH MY GOD, you are Mr. Professional leaving a post of freaking videogame forum?  LOL, it is completely official, you do suck...
Where did he say he had a talk show??  I could barely understand his broken english.  I even reread it 3 times.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6997

topal63 wrote:

wannabe_tank_whore wrote:

topal63 wrote:

LOL

Debate and serious talk - are you sure?

Do you know how to frame a question into a serious one? Yes(?) No(?). . . I am thinking no.

First OFF - Kerry is not president; doesn't matter this far after the fact. . .
...<snipped>...
Please work on your coherent thought process.  I can't be persuaded to your point if I can barely understand what you are trying to say.
What needs to be spelled out to you?

1.) It’s old news that he didn’t win, but the real news was the Election discrepancies.
2.) Kerry is not the president - not because he was disliked - because the truth is something else - that we can never verify - because the so-called Democratic system is now a screwed-up system (Diebold).

What has dislike got to do with it? Nothing - it’s hardly a serious question.

The serious question would be: Why is Kerry NOT president, why was Gore not President, and how did the election process get so screwed up? Why are necessary independent (non-biased) sources such as local voting officials and their original tally of votes being discarded in favor of a 2nd-non-verified-vote-tally?

Also you operate on one misconception after the other. . .

1.) What the meaning of things are: elite, liberal, etc - all just simple rhetorical ideological pills you’ve swallowed whole - you give very little thought to anything.
2.) You are common: you will make a claim to being logical or what is logical, and will use words, like you have: coherent, point, etc. . . but you can’t use the words properly - you don’t understand that content follows any claim - from my perspective you are just being "lazy of mind."
Do you actually know about all the discrepancies? Or has your one sided ideology blinded you?  What about the number of dead that vote for democrats?  The same people voting multiple times for democrats because they don't have a legitimate address registered.  The slashing of republican's van tires that were to carry people to the polls.  The list goes on and on.  Mine are facts that can be backed up with documented evidence.  Now, list evidences of the discrepancies you mentioned.
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

name the last president you would not consider an elite
Can't think of one since Roosevelt (although Truman and Eisenhower were not egregious).  Calvin Coolidge would be a candidate.

An argument can be made that a President, by virtue of his position IS elite.  What I am referring to is their use of their position to further their own interests, personal situation, or political agenda (i.e. party politics, rather than national policy with a political slant {the latter is unavoidable}) at the expense of the public.  This is elitism - the belief that one's position entitles them to status and priviliges that ordinary citizens do not warrant, and it is contrary to the philosophy upon which this country was founded.  Examples, as I have already noted, include Kerry hunting when he opposes citizens posession of guns...or Kennedy's bodyguards carrying fully automatic weapons which are illegal.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-03-15 06:27:40)

Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7057

Kniero wrote:

Kerry had concrete, logical responses and was an overall sensical man. George W. Bush can barely formulate a complex sentence without stumbling for over 10 seconds.

(P.S. To those who think Kerry would have withdrawn troops from Iraq, you are fucking insane and thoroughly retarded. Anyone in their right mind understood that, were our forces to leave in the middle of this war, the Middle-East would suffer greatly and radicalism would truly spread.)
Nice try kid, Kerry and Bush had the Same GPA in the same school. Early on in the Campain the Left wing media Pushed the " He's dumb " Slogan. People like you who feel more power with a group or heard mentality are marching in lock step like Nazis ( or Lemmings ) to the same tune to this day. The world moves foward so should you.
unnamednewbie13
Moderator
+2,053|6992|PNW

Kniero wrote:

Kerry had concrete, logical responses...
Concrete? He reversed opinions faster than a BF2 player swaps teams for the WCR. Even Bubba was disgusted at the way the man handled politics. If Kerry would have put his rice-shrapnel purple hearts away and put out a solid opinion pertaining to important topics, he would've inspired more corpse-votes, and won.

And the US would probably be in Iraq anyway.

Last edited by unnamednewbie13 (2006-03-15 06:27:47)

GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6864

whittsend wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

name the last president you would not consider an elite
Can't think of one since Roosevelt (although Truman and Eisenhower were not egregious).  Calvin Coolidge would be a candidate.

An argument can be made that a President, by virtue of his position IS elite.  What I am referring to is their use of their position to further their own interests, personal situation, or political agenda (i.e. party politics, rather than national policy with a political slant {the latter is unavoidable}) at the expense of the public.  This is elitism - the belief that one's position entitles them to status and priviliges that ordinary citizens do not warrant, and it is contrary to the philosophy upon which this country was founded.  Examples, as I have already noted, include Kerry hunting when he opposes citizens posession of guns...or Kennedy's bodyguards carrying fully automatic weapons which are illegal.
i think what your describing is political corruption
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

i think what your describing is political corruption
No, corruption involves quid pro quo.
topal63
. . .
+533|6938

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

whittsend wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

name the last president you would not consider an elite
Can't think of one since Roosevelt (although Truman and Eisenhower were not egregious).  Calvin Coolidge would be a candidate.

An argument can be made that a President, by virtue of his position IS elite.  What I am referring to is their use of their position to further their own interests, personal situation, or political agenda (i.e. party politics, rather than national policy with a political slant {the latter is unavoidable}) at the expense of the public.  This is elitism - the belief that one's position entitles them to status and priviliges that ordinary citizens do not warrant, and it is contrary to the philosophy upon which this country was founded.  Examples, as I have already noted, include Kerry hunting when he opposes citizens posession of guns...or Kennedy's bodyguards carrying fully automatic weapons which are illegal.
i think what your describing is political corruption
Nope. . .

. . . it is more appropriate to suggest duplicity or hypocrisy (rather than elitism), in the example cited about Guns.
Horseman 77
Banned
+160|7057
It was interesting to watch Kerry on  old TV programs Trashing the USA and his Navy Unit, Then Years later Attending " Swift Boat Veteran Reunions " in a Flight jacket ??? His presence there for photo ops was resented as it was run as a memorial for the fallen. The Vets felt he degraded it.

Also of note, there was not one of his " Band of Brothers " (  NOT ONE  ) Swift Boat Veteran who supported kerry and several had law suits

Making him take their pictures out of his campaign adds.

Another thought for younger people.

In the last few campaigns, The Left wing media will turn on and off the importance of a candidates War service  Records  to suit its needs

Example

Bush vs Ducaokis SP sorry

Bush     Bonified Combat Veteran, Decorated War hero, Youngest Navy Pilot Ever in a no quater theater of WWII

Dukocis    Service ?

The Media's take.. No one cares about Heros but VP candidate Dan Quale only served in the National guard. This was their Focus, Why?

Bush vs clinton ..

Bush

Bonafied Combat Veteran, Decorated War hero, Youngest Navy Pilot Ever in a no quater theater of WWII

clinton .. Used privilege to evade service all together and " loathed the military "

The Media's take.  No one cares about Heroes, and I quote "character doesn't matter "

Dole vs clinton

Dole.. Bonafied Combat Veteran, Decorated War hero, Wounded in action, Disabled Veteran.

clinton    Used privalage to evade service all together  and " loathed the millitary "

The Media's take.  No one cares about Heros , and I qoute " charictar dosen't matter "

G.W.Bush vs Gore

Bush served in National Guard Stateside, The War winding down no new troops being sent used influence to pick where he served.

Gore  Served half a tour ?  as a photo journalist.

The Media's take.  Now We care about Heroes, Bush didn't see combat!

Bush vs Kerry

Bush  National Guard Stateside, War winding down no new troops being sent used influence to pick where he served.

Kerry   used influence to pick where he served. another Short tour. ?

The Media's take.  Now We care about Heroes, Bush didn't see combat!  Bush didn't scratch his hand like Kerry did.

You can see my slant. I do not deny My bias if you will, but every word and sentance is balls on acurate
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA

topal63 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:

whittsend wrote:


Can't think of one since Roosevelt (although Truman and Eisenhower were not egregious).  Calvin Coolidge would be a candidate.

An argument can be made that a President, by virtue of his position IS elite.  What I am referring to is their use of their position to further their own interests, personal situation, or political agenda (i.e. party politics, rather than national policy with a political slant {the latter is unavoidable}) at the expense of the public.  This is elitism - the belief that one's position entitles them to status and priviliges that ordinary citizens do not warrant, and it is contrary to the philosophy upon which this country was founded.  Examples, as I have already noted, include Kerry hunting when he opposes citizens posession of guns...or Kennedy's bodyguards carrying fully automatic weapons which are illegal.
i think what your describing is political corruption
Nope. . .

. . . it is more appropriate to suggest duplicity or hypocrisy (rather than elitism), in the example cited about Guns.
I would agree with those characterisations, but they are not mutually exclusive of elitism.  What you (willfully, due to partisan identification?) fail to see is that these people are not just citizens who desire exemptions because of a lack of a coherent personal philosophy (which would explain the actions of one who was a simple hypocrite).  They (especially in the case of Kennedy) actually beleive that they are entitled to exemptions from the norm based on who they are and the status they hold.  That is elitism.

As I noted before, look up the laws Congress exempts itself from.  The easiest ones to find are labor laws.  The philosophy behind the exemptions is simply this, "These are the laws of the land, which all must follow...except for us, because we create the laws of the land."

Elitist, and disgraceful.
IronFerret
Member
+48|6877|Mexico City.
he just to think, thats not much popular in US in a president.. look at the Rooselvelt and JFK rating.. despite they were one of the hell good presidents acording to History and facts.
GunSlinger OIF II
Banned.
+1,860|6864
our greatest president was teddy roosevelt
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA
Teddy Roosevelt, while having some admirable personal qualities, was a Progressive.  He believed the problems of the country could be solved by government intervention.  This, unfortuantely, made him one of the first 'big government' Republicans.  This led to a philosophy which culminates not in Ronald Reagan, but in George W. Bush.  Personally, I prefer the Reagan branch of the party.
topal63
. . .
+533|6938

whittsend wrote:

topal63 wrote:

GunSlinger OIF II wrote:


i think what your describing is political corruption
Nope. . .

. . . it is more appropriate to suggest duplicity or hypocrisy (rather than elitism), in the example cited about Guns.
I would agree with those characterisations, but they are not mutually exclusive of elitism.  What you (willfully, due to partisan identification?) fail to see is that these people are not just citizens who desire exemptions because of a lack of a coherent personal philosophy (which would explain the actions of one who was a simple hypocrite).  They (especially in the case of Kennedy) actually beleive that they are entitled to exemptions from the norm based on who they are and the status they hold.  That is elitism.

As I noted before, look up the laws Congress exempts itself from.  The easiest ones to find are labor laws.  The philosophy behind the exemptions is simply this, "These are the laws of the land, which all must follow...except for us, because we create the laws of the land."

Elitist, and disgraceful.
I am ha-ing - p--blem un-er-stan-i-g m-ybe i*s m- brok-n engl-sh.

. . . anyway, exemption from a particular law is NOT elitism in any way.

A surveyor for example is exempt from most tress-pass laws - he is allowed by law to enter onto your property, in accordance with law, based upon his need to perform an inspection of the boundary evidence.
A cop is allowed to speed, all that he has to do is turn the lights on, and everything is AOK.
Certain members of the armed forces are exempt from some (state) laws that govern professional licensing (meaning a professional engineer in the private sector is held to a higher and stricter standard). Many government officials (and I mean low level, certainly not elite) are held to a different standard in terms of licensing exemptions.
Having a concealed weapon on your body is against the law, unless you have acquired an exemption (a permit).
Etc. . .

If fact it is not uncommon at all that the rules (laws) are the NOT same from one individual to the next; nor are they necessarily fair; nor must they be (the same or seem fair) in all cases.

I see no reason why/or when I would need body guards armed with assault rifles; nor do I mind myself being exempt from having the right to get one. And should I truly desire the need to fire these types of weapons I can always join the Army. High level politicians in the past and recent past have been and will continue to be targets for assignations - I see nothing elitist about a “Kennedy” having body guards armed with assault rifles; even if I cannot; and considering the history of the family even less so. 

Not elitist and hardly disgraceful. Seems more like common sense based upon a family history.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6997
http://www.answers.com/elitism&r=67

hmmm.... topal63, you're wrong.
wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6997
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA

topal63 wrote:

I am ha-ing - p--blem un-er-stan-i-g m-ybe i*s m- brok-n engl-sh.

. . . anyway, exemption from a particular law is NOT elitism in any way.
Really?

topal63 wrote:

A surveyor for example is exempt from most tress-pass laws - he is allowed by law to enter onto your property, in accordance with law, based upon his need to perform an inspection of the boundary evidence.
Not familiar with this one, but accept it at face value.

topal63 wrote:

A cop is allowed to speed, all that he has to do is turn the lights on, and everything is AOK.
Very specific rules govern this, and it is widely abused.

topal63 wrote:

Certain members of the armed forces are exempt from some (state) laws that govern professional licensing (meaning a professional engineer in the private sector is held to a higher and stricter standard).
Really?  Please elaborate.  If you are referring to the Army Corps of Engineers, they have specific Federal responsibilites and are not operating as 'Engineers' as one normally understands the term.  In any case, this is not an exemption, but is an example of Federal Law taking precidence over local or state laws.  If you are not referring to the Corps of Engineers, I'd be interested in knowing what you are talking about.  After 12 years in the army I wasn't aware of any such exemption.

topal63 wrote:

Many government officials (and I mean low level, certainly not elite) are held to a different standard in terms of licensing exemptions.
Not in my state they aren't.  Feel free to expand on this.

topal63 wrote:

Having a concealed weapon on your body is against the law, unless you have acquired an exemption (a permit).
That depends on local law.

topal63 wrote:

If fact it is not uncommon at all that the rules (laws) are the NOT same from one individual to the next; nor are they necessarily fair; nor must they be (the same or seem fair) in all cases.
But they must be, and usually are, fairly enumerated, and with good reason.  You are comparing disparate cases.

topal63 wrote:

I see no reason why/or when I would need body guards armed with assault rifles; nor do I mind myself being exempt from having the right to get one. And should I truly desire the need to fire these types of weapons I can always join the Army. High level politicians in the past and recent past have been and will continue to be targets for assignations - I see nothing elitist about a “Kennedy” having body guards armed with assault rifles; even if I cannot; and considering the history of the family even less so. 

Not elitist and hardly disgraceful. Seems more like common sense based upon a family history.
Who said anything about Assault Rifles?  That is not a term you will hear me using, as it is a meaningless phrase created by the anti-gun lobby specifically to inflame peoples emotions - it is easier to engage peoples emotions than their intellects (if you disagree, please tell me what an Assault Rifle is, and why it is more dangerous than any other weapon). 

I said FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.  Unless you have a federal firearms license (which is for weapons dealers, not for bodyguards) or are in very specific law enforcement roles, or are in the military, it is illegal to posess those.  Kennedy's bodyguards fit none of those descriptions at the time this was discovered several years back.  In fact, his bodyguards were arrested if I recall correctly.  His family history does not warrant exemption from the law, and it does not warrant special treatment.

I am not referring to Vocational exemtions which are required in the pursuit of ones job.

Your defense of Kennedy's employees disregard of the law is inadequate.

You did not address Congress's exemption from its own labor laws.

You do not make a very good case.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-03-15 13:02:23)

wannabe_tank_whore
Member
+5|6997

whittsend wrote:

topal63 wrote:

I see no reason why/or when I would need body guards armed with assault rifles; nor do I mind myself being exempt from having the right to get one. And should I truly desire the need to fire these types of weapons I can always join the Army. High level politicians in the past and recent past have been and will continue to be targets for assignations - I see nothing elitist about a “Kennedy” having body guards armed with assault rifles; even if I cannot; and considering the history of the family even less so. 

Not elitist and hardly disgraceful. Seems more like common sense based upon a family history.
Who said anything about Assault Rifles?  That is not a term you will hear me using, as it is a meaningless phrase created by the anti-gun lobby (if you disagree, please tell me what an Assault Rifle is, and why it is more dangerous than any other weapon).  I said FULLY AUTOMATIC WEAPONS.  Unless you have a federal firearms license (which is for weapons dealers, not for bodyguards) or are in very specific law enforcement roles, or are in the military, it is illegal to posess those.  Kennedy's bodyguards fit none of those descriptions at the time this was discovered several years back.  In fact, his bodyguards were arrested if I recall correctly.  His family history does not warrant exemption from the law, and it does not warrant special treatment.
If he and his family got special treatment... what would you call that?
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6978|MA, USA
Apologies for modifying the original post a bit.

In any case, I'd call it elitism.  Even though he didn't get special treatment in the end (actually, Kennedy got off scot free, but the bodyguards had to face the music), the fact that he expected to get it in the first place is indicative of where his head is at. 

He BELIEVED THAT HIS EMPLOYEES COULD VIOLATE THE LAW BECAUSE THEY WERE HIS EMPLOYEES.  THAT is elitism.

Last edited by whittsend (2006-03-15 13:07:49)

shyuechou
Member
+5|6859|Singapore
Whatever it is, well, this article may or may not point to future trends.

The liberal baby bust
By Phillip Longman Tue Mar 14, 6:56 AM ET

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/200603 … MlJVRPUCUl  <http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060314/cm_usatoday/theliberalbabybust;_ylt=AqWu5acyM2yNJR6mTkW0y9EDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl>

What's the difference between Seattle and Salt Lake City? There are many differences, of course, but here's one you might not know. In Seattle, there are nearly 45% more dogs than children. In Salt Lake City, there are nearly 19% more kids than dogs.

This curious fact might at first seem trivial, but it reflects a much broader and little-noticed demographic trend that has deep implications for the future of global culture and politics. It's not that people in a progressive city such as Seattle are so much fonder of dogs than are people in a conservative city such as Salt Lake City. It's that progressives are so much less likely to have children.
It's a pattern found throughout the world, and it augers a far more conservative future - one in which patriarchy and other traditional values make a comeback, if only by default. Childlessness and small families are increasingly the norm today among progressive secularists. As a consequence, an increasing share of all children born into the world are descended from a share of the population whose conservative values have led them to raise large families.

Today, fertility correlates strongly with a wide range of political, cultural and religious attitudes. In the USA, for example, 47% of people who attend church weekly say their ideal family size is three or more children. By contrast, 27% of those who seldom attend church want that many kids.

In Utah, where more than two-thirds of residents are members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 92 children are born each year for every 1,000 women, the highest fertility rate in the nation. By contrast Vermont - the first to embrace gay unions - has the nation's lowest rate, producing 51 children per 1,000 women.

Similarly, in Europe today, the people least likely to have children are those most likely to hold progressive views of the world. For instance, do you distrust the army and other institutions and are you prone to demonstrate against them? Then, according to polling data assembled by demographers Ron Lesthaeghe and Johan Surkyn, you are less likely to be married and have kids or ever to get married and have kids. Do you find soft drugs, homosexuality and euthanasia acceptable? Do you seldom, if ever, attend church? Europeans who answer affirmatively to such questions are far more likely to live alone or be in childless, cohabiting unions than are those who answer negatively.

This correlation between secularism, individualism and low fertility portends a vast change in modern societies. In the USA, for example, nearly 20% of women born in the late 1950s are reaching the end of their reproductive lives without having children. The greatly expanded childless segment of contemporary society, whose members are drawn disproportionately from the feminist and countercultural movements of the 1960s and '70s, will leave no genetic legacy. Nor will their emotional or psychological influence on the next generation compare with that of people who did raise children.

Single-child factor

Meanwhile, single-child families are prone to extinction. A single child replaces one of his or her parents, but not both. Consequently, a segment of society in which single-child families are the norm will decline in population by at least 50% per generation and quite quickly disappear. In the USA, the 17.4% of baby boomer women who had one child account for a mere 9.2% of kids produced by their generation. But among children of the baby boom, nearly a quarter descend from the mere 10% of baby boomer women who had four or more kids.

This dynamic helps explain the gradual drift of American culture toward religious fundamentalism and social conservatism. Among states that voted for  President Bush <http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=President+Bush>  in 2004, the average fertility rate is more than 11% higher than the rate of states for Sen. John Kerry <http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=John+Kerry> .

It might also help to explain the popular resistance among rank-and-file Europeans to such crown jewels of secular liberalism as the European Union <http://search.news.yahoo.com/search/news/?p=European+Union> . It turns out that Europeans who are most likely to identify themselves as "world citizens" are also less likely to have children.

Rewriting history?

Why couldn't tomorrow's Americans and Europeans, even if they are disproportionately raised in patriarchal, religiously minded households, turn out to be another generation of '68? The key difference is that during the post-World War II era, nearly all segments of society married and had children. Some had more than others, but there was much more conformity in family size between the religious and the secular. Meanwhile, thanks mostly to improvements in social conditions, there is no longer much difference in survival rates for children born into large families and those who have few if any siblings.

Tomorrow's children, therefore, unlike members of the postwar baby boom generation, will be for the most part descendants of a comparatively narrow and culturally conservative segment of society. To be sure, some members of the rising generation may reject their parents' values, as often happens. But when they look for fellow secularists with whom to make common cause, they will find that most of their would-be fellow travelers were quite literally never born.

Many will celebrate these developments. Others will view them as the death of the Enlightenment. Either way, they will find themselves living through another great cycle of history.

Phillip Longman is a fellow at the New America Foundation and the author of The Empty Cradle: How Falling Birthrates Threaten World Prosperity and What to Do About It. This essay is adapted from his cover story in the current issue of Foreign Policy magazine.

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