In theory, not difficult.Dilbert_X wrote:
Registration, secure storage, a rigourous licensing sytem - its not that difficult.
In practice, the devil is in the details. You're an engineer, you know this.
In practice, the devil is in the details. You're an engineer, you know this.
Those are generally drivers with their licenses suspended or expired, meaning that most of them have gone through the driver's license process. They just have proven that they cannot follow the rules of the road and have had their license to operate a motor vehicle revoked. Where the problem lies is in not taking their car or license plates from them at the same time as their license.Jay wrote:
There are millions of unlicensed drivers on the road every day.Narupug wrote:
The alternative is making it harder for people who are planning on doing bad things to get a hold of guns. If you would allow me to bring up the car analogy as others have already done. We put up with what I would call a relatively thorough process of training before we are allowed to operate a car. If everyone is willing to put up with that to be able to drive a car, then, why do we have nothing even approaching that before we're allowed to operate a firearm?Reciprocity wrote:
and what would the alternative be? the confiscation and destruction of 350+ million firearms? State managed, bi-monthly mental health exams? I'm all for keeping guns and any other weapons out of the hands of criminals and window lickers but visceral reactions will not solve anything.
I acknowledge the argument that people who want to do this kind of stuff will find ways to do it one way or another. But the more obstacles you put in their way, the better a chance you have of stopping them.
Don't you think many many more unlicensed drivers would be on the road if having a driver's license was only optional? Think about all the many more car related deaths we would have if that was the case. The fact that it is a requirement to have a license prevents every 14 year old with a taste for adventure from hopping in a car and going for a trip down I-95.
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license. A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants. Having a license in your pocket doesn't stop you from texting and driving, driving drunk, speeding, tailgating or any of the other hundreds of laws that are on the books and that are supposedly designed to make driving safer. In fact, I'd make the argument that unlicensed drivers are more careful because if they get caught doing any of the above they face the risk of running into a dickhead officer that hauls them off to jail.Narupug wrote:
Those are generally drivers with their licenses suspended or expired, meaning that most of them have gone through the driver's license process. They just have proven that they cannot follow the rules of the road and have had their license to operate a motor vehicle revoked. Where the problem lies is in not taking their car or license plates from them at the same time as their license.Jay wrote:
There are millions of unlicensed drivers on the road every day.Narupug wrote:
The alternative is making it harder for people who are planning on doing bad things to get a hold of guns. If you would allow me to bring up the car analogy as others have already done. We put up with what I would call a relatively thorough process of training before we are allowed to operate a car. If everyone is willing to put up with that to be able to drive a car, then, why do we have nothing even approaching that before we're allowed to operate a firearm?
I acknowledge the argument that people who want to do this kind of stuff will find ways to do it one way or another. But the more obstacles you put in their way, the better a chance you have of stopping them.
Don't you think many many more unlicensed drivers would be on the road if having a driver's license was only optional? Think about all the many more car related deaths we would have if that was the case. The fact that it is a requirement to have a license prevents every 14 year old with a taste for adventure from hopping in a car and going for a trip down I-95.
What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Regardless, the premise for your original argument is silly. I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Something like 1 in 5 accidents involve an unlicensed driver and unlicensed drivers are many times more likely to be caught drinking and driving. Regardless of how easy it is to get a license, and generally if you're under 21 you have to do a considerable amount of practice hours before you can send in for your license (it's 35 up here in Maine and I've heard it's 60 in places like Pennsylvania), that test you had to take still required you to know "drinking and driving = bad" and "don't run a red light" and things like that. That way you have at least shown that you know what the law is and that you are at least somewhat aware of the rules of the road. Well what stops most 14 year olds is knowing that there is a decent probability that he or she will do something stupid and get pulled over and go to jail. You're right, there isn't anyone following the 14 year old around preventing them around, but common sense prevents the average 14 year old from going for a ride down the highwayJay wrote:
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license. A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants. Having a license in your pocket doesn't stop you from texting and driving, driving drunk, speeding, tailgating or any of the other hundreds of laws that are on the books and that are supposedly designed to make driving safer. In fact, I'd make the argument that unlicensed drivers are more careful because if they get caught doing any of the above they face the risk of running into a dickhead officer that hauls them off to jail.Narupug wrote:
Those are generally drivers with their licenses suspended or expired, meaning that most of them have gone through the driver's license process. They just have proven that they cannot follow the rules of the road and have had their license to operate a motor vehicle revoked. Where the problem lies is in not taking their car or license plates from them at the same time as their license.Jay wrote:
There are millions of unlicensed drivers on the road every day.
Don't you think many many more unlicensed drivers would be on the road if having a driver's license was only optional? Think about all the many more car related deaths we would have if that was the case. The fact that it is a requirement to have a license prevents every 14 year old with a taste for adventure from hopping in a car and going for a trip down I-95.
What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Regardless, the premise for your original argument is silly. I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.
My point has very little to do with drivers licenses and unlicensed drivers though. The point is that we need to do a better job of insuring that those who own firearms, are actually mentally and physically capable of owning them safely.
And I've explained to you that no matter how stringent you make the laws, people will ignore them. There are already laws preventing felons from purchasing firearms and they still find a way to possess them.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never shot a gun before and that you are probably terrified of them. Compared to driving, shooting is easy. The military takes people off the street that have never fired a weapon before in their life and, over the course of two weeks, turns them into expert shots. Load, unload, keep weapon pointed downrange, clear malfunctions, aim, squeeze the trigger. I could teach all of this to you inside of two hours and it wouldn't make you any more responsible than you were when you walked in the door. It would just make you a more dangerous human being.
I'm going to go ahead and assume that you've never shot a gun before and that you are probably terrified of them. Compared to driving, shooting is easy. The military takes people off the street that have never fired a weapon before in their life and, over the course of two weeks, turns them into expert shots. Load, unload, keep weapon pointed downrange, clear malfunctions, aim, squeeze the trigger. I could teach all of this to you inside of two hours and it wouldn't make you any more responsible than you were when you walked in the door. It would just make you a more dangerous human being.
Last edited by Jay (2012-07-31 20:07:13)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Wow.Jay wrote:
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license.
Maybe in the Appalachians, most other parts of the world its proof that:A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants.
- You can understand and remember the various road rules, speed limits, drink driving limits etc
- You have basic demonstrated proficiency in driving a car, in traffic, at night, in the wet etc
- You have some understanding of hazard perception, and an idea of what to do if a hazard presents
- You haven't been banned from driving for committing a serious violation, or numerous minor violations, of the road rules
- The driving examiner is confident you've demonstrated you'll be a safe and responsible driver
That may be how it works in Hicksville. Most other places require more than 'experience'.I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.
What stops anyone committing any crime?What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Whats your suggestion, have no laws, no regulations, no restrictions, let anyone with a thumbprint drive cars and buy machineguns?
We've seen what your Ayn Rand utopia looks like and it sucks ass.
Honestly, most people regard Ayn Rand as a joke of a screwball, here's why.
Nope, barely gives them a minimal grounding. Most overconfident ex-military types I've run into are barely competent in even basic handling.The military takes people off the street that have never fired a weapon before in their life and, over the course of two weeks, turns them into expert shots.
Last edited by Dilbert_X (2012-08-01 02:32:02)
Fuck Israel
Na man, Jay has it spot on with the drivers licenses.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow.Jay wrote:
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license.Maybe in the Appalachians, most other parts of the world its proof that:A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants.
- You can understand and remember the various road rules, speed limits, drink driving limits etc
- You have basic demonstrated proficiency in driving a car, in traffic, at night, in the wet etc
- You have some understanding of hazard perception, and an idea of what to do if a hazard presents
- You haven't been banned from driving for committing a serious violation, or numerous minor violations, of the road rules
- The driving examiner is confident you've demonstrated you'll be a safe and responsible driverThat may be how it works in Hicksville. Most other places require more than 'experience'.I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.What stops anyone committing any crime?What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Whats your suggestion, have no laws, no regulations, no restrictions, let anyone with a thumbprint drive cars and buy machineguns?
We've seen what your Ayn Rand utopia looks like and it sucks ass.
Honestly, most people regard Ayn Rand as a joke of a screwball, here's why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ooKsv_S … re=relatedNope, barely gives them a minimal grounding. Most overconfident ex-military types I've run into are barely competent in even basic handling.The military takes people off the street that have never fired a weapon before in their life and, over the course of two weeks, turns them into expert shots.
They give those things out like candy, be it in Boston, NY, Hartford and everywhere in between. The requirements to pass are very very minimal and we have a serious issue with ignorant drivers that has gone unaddressed for decades. Simply because no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.
My place of work is right off of an incredibly busy road, used a lot by ambulances, police cars, fire trucks and 10,000+ people a week. Every time i see an emergency vehicle wizzing down the road, I see 2-5 drivers not pulling over, or they pass cars that do pull over. They cut people off, run red lights and stop signs. America has a problem, but it's not with firearms, its with the 1 ton death machines we let anyone with 50 bucks and 1/4 of brain drive.
I personally think America should be giving out license exams every 5 years, and stricter regulations on who can and cannot drive.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
Should probably have a look at how you give out licenses, then.
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
The problem is, an overhaul like that would take years and cost billions. Money this country would much rather spend on flashy new ways to deliver explosives onto brown people.Spark wrote:
Should probably have a look at how you give out licenses, then.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
Might explain why your death toll is double or more then most other developed countries.UnkleRukus wrote:
Na man, Jay has it spot on with the drivers licenses.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow.Jay wrote:
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license.Maybe in the Appalachians, most other parts of the world its proof that:A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants.
- You can understand and remember the various road rules, speed limits, drink driving limits etc
- You have basic demonstrated proficiency in driving a car, in traffic, at night, in the wet etc
- You have some understanding of hazard perception, and an idea of what to do if a hazard presents
- You haven't been banned from driving for committing a serious violation, or numerous minor violations, of the road rules
- The driving examiner is confident you've demonstrated you'll be a safe and responsible driverThat may be how it works in Hicksville. Most other places require more than 'experience'.I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.What stops anyone committing any crime?What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Whats your suggestion, have no laws, no regulations, no restrictions, let anyone with a thumbprint drive cars and buy machineguns?
We've seen what your Ayn Rand utopia looks like and it sucks ass.
Honestly, most people regard Ayn Rand as a joke of a screwball, here's why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ooKsv_S … re=relatedNope, barely gives them a minimal grounding. Most overconfident ex-military types I've run into are barely competent in even basic handling.The military takes people off the street that have never fired a weapon before in their life and, over the course of two weeks, turns them into expert shots.
They give those things out like candy, be it in Boston, NY, Hartford and everywhere in between. The requirements to pass are very very minimal and we have a serious issue with ignorant drivers that has gone unaddressed for decades. Simply because no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.
My place of work is right off of an incredibly busy road, used a lot by ambulances, police cars, fire trucks and 10,000+ people a week. Every time i see an emergency vehicle wizzing down the road, I see 2-5 drivers not pulling over, or they pass cars that do pull over. They cut people off, run red lights and stop signs. America has a problem, but it's not with firearms, its with the 1 ton death machines we let anyone with 50 bucks and 1/4 of brain drive.
I personally think America should be giving out license exams every 5 years, and stricter regulations on who can and cannot drive.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
And no, it's not because you driver 'further', that is the weakest excuse out there, no different to the high density = high murder rates
Last edited by DrunkFace (2012-08-01 06:00:27)
Once again, the issue is enforcement.
I have personally seen people ask a judge for mercy after a DUI. As evidence it was a first time offense, they show their clean driving record. The judge agrees, and gives them a fine and community service, but doesn't jail them and WORSE allows it to stay off their driving record.
Next month, the same person is in court again for another DUI, showing that pristine driving record as evidence it was a first time offense...
DUIs are a much bigger threat in this country right now than guns ever will be.
I have a friend from out of the country who was stressing because she had to study for her driving test. I didn't understand why. After talking some more, I understood. In her country, they have to take a driving theorem class, a driving course, and then the test is a 4-hour, 180 page test that includes essays.
Here, the test is 20 multiple choice questions and a drive around the block.
And the questions look like this:
What do you do when you come to an intersection with a red octagon sign with the word "Stop" written on it?
a) Come to a complete stop, making sure traffic is clear and you have the right of way before proceeding cautiously through the intersection.
b) Go around the sign on the sidewalk.
c) Speed up and try to beat the other vehicles through the intersection.
d) Park your car in the street and continue your trip on foot.
It is a joke... But even then, I think more enforcement of the laws (including using the points system on drivers licenses) would help... Of course, then you would just end up with a number of unlicensed drivers, but you would have to enforce that too...
I have personally seen people ask a judge for mercy after a DUI. As evidence it was a first time offense, they show their clean driving record. The judge agrees, and gives them a fine and community service, but doesn't jail them and WORSE allows it to stay off their driving record.
Next month, the same person is in court again for another DUI, showing that pristine driving record as evidence it was a first time offense...
DUIs are a much bigger threat in this country right now than guns ever will be.
I have a friend from out of the country who was stressing because she had to study for her driving test. I didn't understand why. After talking some more, I understood. In her country, they have to take a driving theorem class, a driving course, and then the test is a 4-hour, 180 page test that includes essays.
Here, the test is 20 multiple choice questions and a drive around the block.
And the questions look like this:
What do you do when you come to an intersection with a red octagon sign with the word "Stop" written on it?
a) Come to a complete stop, making sure traffic is clear and you have the right of way before proceeding cautiously through the intersection.
b) Go around the sign on the sidewalk.
c) Speed up and try to beat the other vehicles through the intersection.
d) Park your car in the street and continue your trip on foot.
It is a joke... But even then, I think more enforcement of the laws (including using the points system on drivers licenses) would help... Of course, then you would just end up with a number of unlicensed drivers, but you would have to enforce that too...
Last edited by HITNRUNXX (2012-08-01 06:14:17)
hmm, essays might be a bit much but i think a multiple choice quiz seems reasonable
edit: to get your LEARNER's license, that is
edit: to get your LEARNER's license, that is
Last edited by Spark (2012-08-01 06:42:58)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
No one is arguing with you dude, most sane people agree this country is fucked up.DrunkFace wrote:
Might explain why your death toll is double or more then most other developed countries.UnkleRukus wrote:
Na man, Jay has it spot on with the drivers licenses.Dilbert_X wrote:
Wow.Jay wrote:
There's no correlation between driving ability and possession of a license.Maybe in the Appalachians, most other parts of the world its proof that:A license is simply an identification tool so that insurance companies know how to assess you correctly and the government can semi keep track of your whereabouts and serve you warrants.
- You can understand and remember the various road rules, speed limits, drink driving limits etc
- You have basic demonstrated proficiency in driving a car, in traffic, at night, in the wet etc
- You have some understanding of hazard perception, and an idea of what to do if a hazard presents
- You haven't been banned from driving for committing a serious violation, or numerous minor violations, of the road rules
- The driving examiner is confident you've demonstrated you'll be a safe and responsible driverThat may be how it works in Hicksville. Most other places require more than 'experience'.I took a five question test in order to get my learners permit. I took driver's education only because I wanted my license at 17 instead of 18, and the road test consisted of me driving around the block and parallel parking. Any idiot can, and will, pass the test for a drivers license. Using this as the basis for your argument regarding gun control is honestly laughable.What stops anyone committing any crime?What stops a 14 year old from hopping in a car and taking a trip down I-95 right this second? Nothing. Solely due to lack of experience, they'll probably be pulled over eventually when they do something stupid.
Whats your suggestion, have no laws, no regulations, no restrictions, let anyone with a thumbprint drive cars and buy machineguns?
We've seen what your Ayn Rand utopia looks like and it sucks ass.
Honestly, most people regard Ayn Rand as a joke of a screwball, here's why.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ooKsv_S … re=related
Nope, barely gives them a minimal grounding. Most overconfident ex-military types I've run into are barely competent in even basic handling.
They give those things out like candy, be it in Boston, NY, Hartford and everywhere in between. The requirements to pass are very very minimal and we have a serious issue with ignorant drivers that has gone unaddressed for decades. Simply because no one wants to take responsibility for their actions.
My place of work is right off of an incredibly busy road, used a lot by ambulances, police cars, fire trucks and 10,000+ people a week. Every time i see an emergency vehicle wizzing down the road, I see 2-5 drivers not pulling over, or they pass cars that do pull over. They cut people off, run red lights and stop signs. America has a problem, but it's not with firearms, its with the 1 ton death machines we let anyone with 50 bucks and 1/4 of brain drive.
I personally think America should be giving out license exams every 5 years, and stricter regulations on who can and cannot drive.
Spoiler (highlight to read):
And no, it's not because you driver 'further', that is the weakest excuse out there, no different to the high density = high murder rates
My driving test consisted of driving 1/2 a mile, backing up in a straight line and parking in a NORMAL parking space. That was it, I got my permit stamped and I was considered a regular citizen with a license. The driving schools are completely optional, and the only reason to go to them is because you get a discount on your yearly insurance premium.
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
haha WHAT
that was honestly your test?
that was honestly your test?
Small hourglass island
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
Always raining and foggy
Use an umbrella
I had to make a right turn, a left turn, merge into traffic, stop at a stop sign, and parallel park. I got dinged for being too cautious and not making a right on red. Seriously a license != competence.FatherTed wrote:
haha WHAT
that was honestly your test?
Last edited by Jay (2012-08-01 06:29:00)
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
Holy shit. My test involved driving around in general city traffic for about an hour (including reverse parallel parking and all the maneuvers like three-point turns etc). And the ACT has a really easy P-plate entry requirement compared to most other states (because it's harder to get L's here)
Last edited by Spark (2012-08-01 06:37:14)
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
Here, take a practice written test: http://www.usdriving.net/index.php
I got 18/20 correct but I think you need to score like a 12 to pass.
I got 18/20 correct but I think you need to score like a 12 to pass.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
18 for me too, and I'm not even American
The paradox is only a conflict between reality and your feeling what reality ought to be.
~ Richard Feynman
~ Richard Feynman
That was honestly my test. That was the test for my entire town, and the surrounding towns.FatherTed wrote:
haha WHAT
that was honestly your test?
The same held true for 90% of Western Massachusetts (exception being Springfield.)
If the women don't find ya handsome. They should at least find ya handy.
In most parts of America it's nigh on impossible to live without a car. Because of this they make it incredibly easy to earn a license.
I had an old speeding ticket from when I lived in Texas that I had forgotten about and when I was pulled over one day after getting caught in a speed trap I discovered that I had been driving on a suspended license for three years. I had to pay my fines, go to court, and they had me plea down from a misdemeanor to a driving infraction and a $500 fine. Total slap on the wrist. Was I a worse driver during those three years? Hardly.
I had an old speeding ticket from when I lived in Texas that I had forgotten about and when I was pulled over one day after getting caught in a speed trap I discovered that I had been driving on a suspended license for three years. I had to pay my fines, go to court, and they had me plea down from a misdemeanor to a driving infraction and a $500 fine. Total slap on the wrist. Was I a worse driver during those three years? Hardly.
"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat
-Frederick Bastiat
19/20 only one I got wrong.Jay wrote:
Here, take a practice written test: http://www.usdriving.net/index.php
I got 18/20 correct but I think you need to score like a 12 to pass.
The zero tolerance law reduced the blood alcohol content (bac) from .08% to ____ for drivers under 21 to be charged with driving under the influence.
I answered zero... oh well.
I'd say the first issue is there is no point in even considering being responsible in the first place - if driving licenses and firearms are so easily obtainable in the first place and there are no consequences if you choose not to be responsible afterwards.HITNRUNXX wrote:
Once again, the issue is enforcement.
Fuck Israel
Maybe in rural areas. People living in suburbs just outside of a major city, not so much. I noticed in my state, the most urban and dense in the U.S., people who work in the big cities like Newark tend to drive long distances to their jobs. people think they are too good to live in urban areas so they blow thousands in gas just to get distance between them and 'poor city people'.Jay wrote:
In most parts of America it's nigh on impossible to live without a car. .
Last edited by Macbeth (2012-08-01 07:21:22)
Mac, have you ever been out west?Macbeth wrote:
Maybe in rural areas. People living in suburbs just outside of a major city, not so much.Jay wrote:
In most parts of America it's nigh on impossible to live without a car. .
13urnzz wrote:
Mac, have you ever been out west?Macbeth wrote:
Maybe in rural areas. People living in suburbs just outside of a major city, not so much.Jay wrote:
In most parts of America it's nigh on impossible to live without a car. .