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2011-01-24 17:25:37

#1026

Uzique: dasein.; +2,865|6687

seriously it is so fucking asinine to accuse somebody of being a marxist because of a left-leaning tendency towards a specific subject.

i really question if you're truthful about working in politics... what does the political spectrum stand for if everything remotely left is 'marxist' and anything remotely right is 'fascist'? i guess various political groups and news-outlets in america have accused obama of being Hitler and Stalin at the same time? and everyone in the country somehow keeps a straight face when they wish to discuss 'politics', or act as if they have a clue? what a load of fucking nonsense.

Last edited by Uzique (2011-01-24 17:26:27)

_{libertarian benefit collector - anti-academic super-intellectual}. _{http://mixlr.com/the-little-phrase/}

2011-01-24 17:34:16

#1027

Jay: Bork! Bork! Bork!; +2,006|5574|London, England

DBBrinson1 wrote:
Uzique wrote:
if you categorize someone as being of a political ideology because of INDIVIDUAL policies then you completely devalue the entire purpose and currency of that term. an economic decision could be termed 'fascist', ideologically, but the IMPORTANT part of an IDEOLOGY is that it is a SET of values, beliefs, policies and practices. to decontextualise one medical bill and classify obama as a marxist does nothing but to destroy the point of having and using the term 'marxist', period.

a guy working in politics should logically realize this.
Oh, I agree. There is a trend with him. Look at his associates and what they're about. But remember, the bamster didn't get what he really wanted in that med bill. I wonder what else he would have done. Honestly it was fellow d's that undid his agenda. They were a f'n sledge hammer for the last two years...

*Will you give me "closet marxist"?

To be fair to the guy, it wasn't his plan, he didn't write it. That was Pelosi, Reid and others. He can say 'this is what I want' until he's blue in the face but it doesn't mean he'll see anything remotely resembling what he wants landing on his desk. Yes, he could then veto, but with a bill that big and with so much political capital invested in it he would've guaranteed that nothing would get done during his presidency.

I don't know what Obama is beyond a politician who functions based on political expediency. Democrats when they become president have to become chameleons in order to survive or they risk following Jimmy Carter into the history books. Is Obama a socialist? Who the fuck knows? It doesn't matter anyway because his only real power comes from the veto.

Edit - The real power a president has lies with his ability to garner votes for his allies. If the president is popular he attracts more voters to the polls who are then likely to vote for the presidents party. Outside of that? It's mostly a figurehead position that gets to reap the praise/blame that has been truly earned by the legislature.

Last edited by JohnG@lt (2011-01-24 17:38:16)

"Ah, you miserable creatures! You who think that you are so great! You who judge humanity to be so small! You who wish to reform everything! Why don't you reform yourselves? That task would be sufficient enough."
-Frederick Bastiat

2011-01-24 18:10:27

#1028

13rin: Member; +977|6695

JohnG@lt wrote:
To be fair to the guy, it wasn't his plan, he didn't write it. That was Pelosi, Reid and others. He can say 'this is what I want' until he's blue in the face but it doesn't mean he'll see anything remotely resembling what he wants landing on his desk. Yes, he could then veto, but with a bill that big and with so much political capital invested in it he would've guaranteed that nothing would get done during his presidency.

I don't know what Obama is beyond a politician who functions based on political expediency. Democrats when they become president have to become chameleons in order to survive or they risk following Jimmy Carter into the history books. Is Obama a socialist? Who the fuck knows? It doesn't matter anyway because his only real power comes from the veto.

Edit - The real power a president has lies with his ability to garner votes for his allies. If the president is popular he attracts more voters to the polls who are then likely to vote for the presidents party. Outside of that? It's mostly a figurehead position that gets to reap the praise/blame that has been truly earned by the legislature.

I can't agree, but can. The man had a super majority , ideology -but lil' experience. So yes institutional democratic leadership wrote the legislation. But IMO they passed crippling measures under the guise of reform. Pork was insane. I dunno If line item veto was back this year? And if he didn't use it, for shame.... But ya, I guess he had to sign something. Yet, He's found several ways to enact various aspects of his agenda circumventing the legislative process (EO). If the super majority couldn't push out something... They got greedy. R's weren't immune from this orgy either.

But why does a D have go hide himself to thrive? To address the above, He's still got executive order and you know what a President can to with it. But...

He's in campaign mode at this point and Nancy Reagan was... bah. Doesn't affect me either way (pg 16 of stock game thread).

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-24 18:25:15

#1029

13rin: Member; +977|6695

Uzique wrote:
seriously it is so fucking asinine to accuse somebody of being a marxist because of a left-leaning tendency towards a specific subject.

Depends on the subject.

Uzique wrote:
i really question if you're truthful about working in politics... what does the political spectrum stand for if everything remotely left is 'marxist' and anything remotely right is 'fascist'? i guess various political groups and news-outlets in america have accused obama of being Hitler and Stalin at the same time? and everyone in the country somehow keeps a straight face when they wish to discuss 'politics', or act as if they have a clue? what a load of fucking nonsense.

Yea.

Don't wind it up so tight. Not everything on the left is 'marxist' and anything on the right 'fascist'. "News groups" claim all kind of shit all the time, whilst slanting it for an ideal, nothing new. I haven't seen to what you have referred. The man is neither. However I have seen those described images of bush....

I actually enjoy how yer types stand and politely rip the other guy.

But if you want to discuss trends in political

*edit:
he's still a marxist.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2011-01-24 18:31:28)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-24 18:34:24

#1030

Kmar: Truth is my Bitch; +5,695|6817|132 and Bush

Uzique wrote:
seriously it is so fucking asinine to accuse somebody of being a marxist because of a left-leaning tendency towards a specific subject.

i really question if you're truthful about working in politics... what does the political spectrum stand for if everything remotely left is 'marxist' and anything remotely right is 'fascist'? i guess various political groups and news-outlets in america have accused obama of being Hitler and Stalin at the same time? and everyone in the country somehow keeps a straight face when they wish to discuss 'politics', or act as if they have a clue? what a load of fucking nonsense.

This shit has bothered me for the longest time. I've posted several times on it. It's just ignorance.

Xbone Stormsurgezz

2011-01-25 05:53:21

#1031

13rin: Member; +977|6695

From his book. ignorance... ya.

"To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The marxist professors and structural feminists." Obama wrote in "Dreams From my Father"

Okay, so he likes to hang out with pretty extremist friends because perhaps he is one? Bill fucking Ayres?

"This is the moment when we must build on the wealth that open markets have created and share its benefits more equitably" -hmmmm

"I think when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody." - Spread the wealth around ya....

For fucks sake class war fare is a huge component of Marxism and Obama engages in that shit all the time.... But hell, I'm ignorant because I'm actully paying attention to what the man says.

Oh then there's this lil gem:

"And it's not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns, or relegion or antipathy to people who arent like them, or anti-immigrant sentiment, or anti-trade sentiments as a way to explain their frustrations" - for the relegious aspects.

Last edited by DBBrinson1 (2011-01-25 05:57:36)

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-25 07:03:41

#1032

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6215|...

How in any way is Obama marxist? Because he talks to people who are? Yeah I'm sure that if you want to be a succesful politician it's a good idea to completely ignore certain views, especially if they're important opposites of the dominant one. That he's willing to talk with everyone should be considered a great trait.

There is nothing even remotely marxist about his policies, have you even read das kapital? With spreading the wealth around he doesn't mean the abolishment of the concept that person A earns more than person B. You have to be really ignorant to interpret that as saying he wants to take all of your money to give it to someone else. He means investing in society for equal opportunity. THAT is spreading wealth in western terms. Marxism doesn't even begin to describe Obama.

By your logic Europe is one big communist bastion, isn't it?

Must be great to have such a retarded black/white mindset. Anyone with even slight socialist tendencies is a marxist. No middleground!

inane little opines

2011-01-25 07:12:42

#1033

13rin: Member; +977|6695

First paragraph is utter bullshit. He all but locked the R's out. Remember the "sit in the back" comments? Or how about the whole elections have consequences lines. The don't tell me how to hold the mop quip or drove it into the ditch stab... Fact is that his buddies are exteremists. By his own goddamn words he was careful to pick his friends so he wouldn't be seen as a "sellout".

Socialized healthcare was his goal. No? Wealth distribution another of his? Punishing business and taking over banks and various aspect of the private sector.... Want me to keep going skippy?

Europe compared to the US is way left, isn't it?

Get the fuck out with your insults.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-25 07:26:52

#1034

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6215|...

According to you having socialist tendencies is marxist, Uzique already explained to you how that is complete bullshit yet you keep clinging to the term when describing Obama, how do you want me to argue that? You completely deny any middleground. Socialized healthcare does not make you a marxist, wanting to distribute wealth is not a purely marxist goal.

Yeah, Europe in comparison to the US is way left leaning i.e. socialist, does it make us marxists? No. What you don't seem to understand is that there is a HUGE difference inbetween simple western socialism and marxism, it's the complete extreme on the spectrum.

Last edited by dayarath (2011-01-25 07:27:12)

inane little opines

2011-01-25 08:01:49

#1035

13rin: Member; +977|6695

You an Uzi are the ones that have pigeon holed this this to one topic, not I.
How is wealth distribution not a value of Marxism?
How is trying to implement massive social programs not a value of Maxism?
Even the religious aspects. Illustrated above.

There were banners of Che up in some of his campaign offices.

Look at his friends. Read his quotes.

I've provided specific examples to illustrate my point and all you do is and Uzi have done is sit there with your fingers in yer' ears screaming "I'm not listening". I charge that you don't know what Marxism is - I do. And I'll call a spade a spade when I see one.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-25 08:15:06

#1036

DesertFox-: The very model of a modern major general; +796|6901|United States of America

You can call a spade a spade, but there's the possiblity that what you were taught was a spade is actually a shovel. He's a far cry from being a Marxist leader (unless he's just biding his time ). You've still got property, don't you?

2011-01-25 08:24:30

#1037

13rin: Member; +977|6695

DesertFox- wrote:
You can call a spade a spade, but there's the possiblity that what you were taught was a spade is actually a shovel. He's a far cry from being a Marxist leader (unless he's just biding his time ). You've still got property, don't you?

Just because he can't doesn't mean he wouldn't if he could.

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-25 08:41:07

#1038

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6215|...

DBBrinson1 wrote:
You an Uzi are the ones that have pigeon holed this this to one topic, not I.
How is wealth distribution not a value of Marxism?
How is trying to implement massive social programs not a value of Maxism?
Even the religious aspects. Illustrated above.

There were banners of Che up in some of his campaign offices.

Look at his friends. Read his quotes.

I've provided specific examples to illustrate my point and all you do is and Uzi have done is sit there with your fingers in yer' ears screaming "I'm not listening". I charge that you don't know what Marxism is - I do. And I'll call a spade a spade when I see one.

Marxism as a concept is not applicable with selective implementation of socialist ideas. You have to go quite a few steps beyond that; when the individual is significantly marginalized, capitalism is abolished and private gain is non-existant, making the collective is the most important entity in a society then you have marxism.

Obama isn't destroying capitalism or impairing your individual choices and freedoms to such a degree to be called a marxist, neither does he take away from you your private property, nor does he advocate such extreme ideals. He has socialist tendencies in a very individualistic society (the US), but by no means is he a Marxist. I don't care what sort of friends he has or which people he admires, he -Obama- never stated he had the desire to remove the individual as a concept, he's not trying to do so either.

There is a very significant gap inbetween marxism and socialism.

inane little opines

2011-01-25 08:49:34

#1039

13rin: Member; +977|6695

dayarath wrote:
Obama isn't destroying capitalism or impairing your individual choices and freedoms to such a degree to be called a marxist, neither does he take away from you your private property, nor does he advocate such extreme ideals. He has socialist tendencies in a very individualistic society (the US), but by no means is he a Marxist. I don't care what sort of friends he has or which people he admires, he -Obama- never stated he had the desire to remove the individual as a concept, he's not trying to do so either.

There is a very significant gap inbetween marxism and socialism.

Gotta start somewhere. How has the bamster not tried to destroy capitalism? Look at the stimulus bill. He flat took over GM. How about the bank grabs? He's gone after wall street telling people what their salaries should be. The writing is on the wall.

How about the take the pill line instead of getting more treatment as a cost savings for the good of the rest?

I stood in line for four hours. They better give me a Wal-Mart gift card, or something. - Rodney Booker, Job Fair attendee.

2011-01-25 09:03:48

#1040

Shocking: sorry you feel that way; +333|6215|...

DBBrinson1 wrote:
dayarath wrote:
Obama isn't destroying capitalism or impairing your individual choices and freedoms to such a degree to be called a marxist, neither does he take away from you your private property, nor does he advocate such extreme ideals. He has socialist tendencies in a very individualistic society (the US), but by no means is he a Marxist. I don't care what sort of friends he has or which people he admires, he -Obama- never stated he had the desire to remove the individual as a concept, he's not trying to do so either.

There is a very significant gap inbetween marxism and socialism.
Gotta start somewhere. How has the bamster not tried to destroy capitalism? Look at the stimulus bill. He flat took over GM. How about the bank grabs? He's gone after wall street telling people what their salaries should be. The writing is on the wall.

How about the take the pill line instead of getting more treatment as a cost savings for the good of the rest?

GM was bankrupt, he could've let the company fall but that would mean tens of thousands of americans without a job, it's damage control. As is getting mad at people for giving themselves bonusses while the government bailed them out in the first place.

inane little opines

2011-01-25 12:44:57