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2006-02-01 04:22:40
Berserk_Vampire
Banned
+7|6916
I've always wondered this apart seeing all the fictional crap in movies and on tv no matter how real or fake they want to make it look i've always wondered this and if this happens alot.

Now say you want to join the army it can be for any reason and depending the person you are you can see a big strong looking mean guy in the army and you think hes a killer then you see some nerdy guy with glasses joining the army right.

Ok but my question is all these types of people and wanting to join the army for any of there reasons do all people know and understand that they will have to kill some one at one point? and do they have no problem with this? I mean since you're fighting in a war its ok to kill so you just do it right?

But what my real question is, has there ever been accidents or any problems like some one joining the army and after all there training there out in the battlefield and fighting and they just couldnt kill a person? Like that couldnt and just froze and ended up getting killed and there team mates? Do you know what i mean?

Its like a guy joins the army goes  threw basic training then hes out fighting then theres a terrorist in front of him and he spots him before the terrorist does but he cant shoot he cant kill the person hes to scared then boom he dies.

Does this kind of thing happen alot or at all? or does every person joining the army confident they can kill some one and have no problem with it?


Cause not every one could kill a person even if they have a right too in war cause alot of people  tell themself just like im sure you do "Yeah if i was in the army i'd kill every one lolz" Then you chicken out and get you're stomach blown out from fear.


Just wondering i've never heard about anything like this in stories or anything so if this kind of thing does happen i guess they keep it quiet?
2006-02-01 05:15:37
parthian1000
Member
+8|6888|The Barbary Coast
Some recent research showed that an unwillingness to kill is the norm not the exception.  I haven't got a link to it - think it was a BBC (UK) documentary called "Killer Instinct" but I could be way off target.  In any case, the point of the programme was that most soldiers don't actively "shoot to kill".  In order to get them to kill requires intensive conditioning or a situation where their survival instinct kicks in (i.e. faced down by an enemy with a gun pointing at your head).
2006-02-01 05:20:13
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7041
Rednecks, poor people and hotheads join the military.
2006-02-01 06:11:34
CommandoRog
Member
+10|6912|USA
Grennie with all your Military experiance and knowledge can you tell us how did you come to the assumption
that only Rednecks,poor people and hotheads join the Military?

Being that i was in the U.S. Infantry for 8 yrs i have seen all types, and 95% of those people met ,worked for ,worked with are not in these categorys.Most are smart, some are slow,but they are doing the job and thats all that counts.

By the way.How long have/were you in the Military?

Judging from your reply you are only as old as your shoe size or just acting like a fool.
2006-02-01 06:19:36
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7041
I'm trying to justify for myself that only stupid or desperate people do stupid shit.

Last edited by Greenie_Beazinie (2006-02-01 06:20:06)

2006-02-01 06:27:46
psychotoxic187
Member
+11|6937

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

I'm trying to justify for myself that only stupid or desperate people do stupid shit.
Pure ignorance. So, fighting for our country, and freedoms is stupid?
2006-02-01 06:33:13
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7041

psychotoxic187 wrote:

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

I'm trying to justify for myself that only stupid or desperate people do stupid shit.
Pure ignorance. So, fighting for our country, and freedoms is stupid?
PLEASE fucking tell me what the fuck Iraq has to do with your country? What did vietnam have to do with your country? What did Korea have to do with your country?

Fucking go join the military if you wanna ride their dick
2006-02-01 06:36:02
Goose_MP[TBG]
Member
+1|6921
Interesting thoughts... well having signed my life away nearly 8 years ago, and still going strong i have a few opinions.. (bear with me - a few historical references)

During WW2, studies by US Army psycologists found that less than 1 in 10 guys actually fired aimed shots at the enemy ( stats were higher in the pacific theatre, but that was due to more indoctrination of the marines involved, harsher environment etc) and the rest just fired randomly - approximately 1 in 5 guys in regular line infantry units (ie not airborne, ranger, etc) didnt even fire their weapon. These stats would indicate that a very small minority of guys did the actual fighting, and the rest supported through presence.

Furthermore, this relatively low percentage of "active fighters" for lack of a better term was also a product of the lack of mateship that the US Army replacement system (whereby reinforcements into the line were individuals rather than coherent units - resulted in guys sharing foxholes who didnt know each other) engendered. This is because one of the strongest instincts (among males - doesnt occur as much with chicks) is to not look bad in front of your mates. Therefore, you saw units from countries where they had trained together, then fought together performed significantly better than units where there was no familiarity amongst the ranks.

A great example of this was troops in the first world war (the pals battalions - from England - entire units from small segments of the community. IE The West Bristol Bankers and Bakers battalion) advanced forward into withering MG fire - not because they particularly wanted too, but rather because they couldnt face their mates if they hadnt all shared the danger. Many citations for the VC and CGMH are as a result of one mate looking after another, or not wanting others to think less of them.

In response to your question about modern day training, and the "killer instinct", much of the training that we now do is to condition you to be able to pull the trigger when you have to. IE the targets you shoot at on the range, are "man sized and shaped" rather than bullseyes. Further, when someone shoots at - its damn annoying - it really pisses you off. So therefore you want to a. stop him shooting, and b. save your own skin - easiest way to do it is to shoot back.

In summary, the combination of the training that we now receive, coupled with the social pressure inherent within most military units to not look bad in front of ones peers means that now many people can pull the trigger when required.

If you are interested in this topic, i recommend you have a look at the following books

Police Battalion 951 - about normal guys in Hitler's Germany that were involved in executing Jews.
Rape of Nanking - Iris Chang.
The Soldiers Tale: Bearing Witness to Modern War  - Samuel Hynes
Monte Cassino - Matthew Parker
On Killing: The Psychology of Battle
Face of Battle - John Keegan
The Origins of Modern War - John Keegan

Hope this answered your questions. If you have any others, just PM me and I will answer when i can.
2006-02-01 06:50:07
Goose_MP[TBG]
Member
+1|6921
To Greenie - Beanzinie....

Mate, you have a right to that opinion... people better than both you and I have died to defend that right.

However, just think - if Australia was ever attacked (im guessing from your tag that you are an aussie), you would be one of the first to scream blue murder that the military wasnt protecting you.. yet now you are happy to slander them (and those who believe in something greater than themselves) just so you can jump on the anti-american sentiment that is so prevalent amongst emos like yourself.

Your playing of this game would indicate that you arent "anti-violence" so i get the feeling that you just like having something to complain about. So how about you put up or shut up. Nail your colours to mast, and actually stand for something rather than being one who sits on the fence waiting to see who will win, and jumping on the bandwagon.

Final thought for you........ Any person that isnt willing to defend their beliefs and society with their life isnt fit to live in it.
2006-02-01 06:59:20
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7041
@ Goose

I aint anti violence. I'm anti-killing. Games and movies also have shit all to do with real violence.

Australia's military wouldnt protect us too well anyyway, but i dont care cause they gotta get through a few thousand kms of desert before they get to me. If a country such as US invaded and came to where I live, then I'd fight and kill them. I got no quarrel with the Aus military anyway, cause they generally aint a bunch of kids with guns.

Dont ever fucking call me emo.

And the only good tihng the US military has done in many years is help in Pakistan, Ache and Florida.

Also, based on your rationale. The Iraqi insurgents are right to be defending their beliefs and society n shit.

Last edited by Greenie_Beazinie (2006-02-01 06:59:54)

2006-02-01 07:09:16
Rathji
Member
+1|6910
Greenie_Beazinie, I am guessing you are rather young.

*insert slanderous liberal commie pinko type comment here*

PLEASE fucking tell me what the fuck Iraq has to do with your country? What did vietnam have to do with your country? What did Korea have to do with your country?
I think you should look into the Cold War and its implications in the military policies of the time. As it stands now, there is no "RED TIDE" to hold back.

As for Iraq? You want to drive your car to work without paying 16 bucks a gallon? Yeah I didn't hear you complaining about that *shrug*
2006-02-01 07:12:36
Greenie_Beazinie
Aussie Outlaw
+8|7041
The Domino theory was bullshit.

I'm 16, but i can have an opinion.

I dont have a car. I dont know much about the oil situation, but i remember petrol being alot cheaper before the war.
2006-02-01 07:25:00
THA
im a fucking .....well not now
+609|6998|AUS, Canberra

Rathji wrote:

Greenie_Beazinie, I am guessing you are rather young.

*insert slanderous liberal commie pinko type comment here*

PLEASE fucking tell me what the fuck Iraq has to do with your country? What did vietnam have to do with your country? What did Korea have to do with your country?
I think you should look into the Cold War and its implications in the military policies of the time. As it stands now, there is no "RED TIDE" to hold back.

As for Iraq? You want to drive your car to work without paying 16 bucks a gallon? Yeah I didn't hear you complaining about that *shrug*
i would have left out the petrol comment, greenie is right petrol in aus has gone up nearly 50 percent since america invaded iraq.

and i use the owrd invaded as thats what it was, it isnt and never will be a war, the point of being there has changed 3 times by my count.
2006-02-01 07:46:42
parthian1000
Member
+8|6888|The Barbary Coast
I would guess that age doesn't have a lot to do with it either.  Given the history of the US and Australian military (Kokoda Trail and General MacArthur) I wouldn't like the American military either.
2006-02-01 10:00:35
psychotoxic187
Member
+11|6937

the_heart_attack wrote:

Rathji wrote:

Greenie_Beazinie, I am guessing you are rather young.

*insert slanderous liberal commie pinko type comment here*

PLEASE fucking tell me what the fuck Iraq has to do with your country? What did vietnam have to do with your country? What did Korea have to do with your country?
I think you should look into the Cold War and its implications in the military policies of the time. As it stands now, there is no "RED TIDE" to hold back.

As for Iraq? You want to drive your car to work without paying 16 bucks a gallon? Yeah I didn't hear you complaining about that *shrug*
i would have left out the petrol comment, greenie is right petrol in aus has gone up nearly 50 percent since america invaded iraq.

and i use the owrd invaded as thats what it was, it isnt and never will be a war, the point of being there has changed 3 times by my count.
The reason has not changed why we are there. Intel said Sadam had weapons of mass destruction, it still could be there, we cannot search every nook and cranny. It's funny how the same people who criticise Bush for the bad intel, all thought that Sadam had these very weapons earlier. We are there to simply hunt down terrorists, and it has everything to do with us greenie, you're just to daft to see that. Petrol has gone up simply, because the oil companies can get away with it. They showed record profits last year, but continued to raise prices.
2006-02-01 10:12:09
Kaosdad
Whisky Tango Foxtrot?
+201|6907|Broadlands, VA
I would like to read one thread in these forums - just ONE - where some twat does NOT make an anti-American statement.  Just one.

To back on thread - Vampire - some folks can;t even pull a virtual trigger, let alone a real one.  My pop was career Navy and was involved in many "War Games."  Now, these were back in the day when they were played with little wooden ships on big boards, eventually they progressed to computers moving little wooden shipes around...

He told me of one game where he was playing on the Soviet side and time came to fire the first round of missles.  The CO gave the command to a LTJG to inform game control that the Soviets were firing X number of Y missiles.  The CO got no response.  The team turned around to find the LTJG litterally curled up in fetal position, wimpering about the massive number of deaths this would result in.

How would he have performed in real combat?  Probably not too well.  In addition to Goose's reccomendations you should look up the story of PVT. Slovack (Slovack?  Was that it?).  A WWII ground pounder who froze up and was executed for desertion (a total travesty of "Military Justice").

Last edited by Kaosdad008 (2006-02-01 10:15:43)

2006-02-01 10:14:03
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6963

Berserk_Vampire wrote:

I've always wondered this apart seeing all the fictional crap in movies and on tv no matter how real or fake they want to make it look i've always wondered this and if this happens alot.

Now say you want to join the army it can be for any reason and depending the person you are you can see a big strong looking mean guy in the army and you think hes a killer then you see some nerdy guy with glasses joining the army right.

Ok but my question is all these types of people and wanting to join the army for any of there reasons do all people know and understand that they will have to kill some one at one point? and do they have no problem with this? I mean since you're fighting in a war its ok to kill so you just do it right?

But what my real question is, has there ever been accidents or any problems like some one joining the army and after all there training there out in the battlefield and fighting and they just couldnt kill a person? Like that couldnt and just froze and ended up getting killed and there team mates? Do you know what i mean?

Its like a guy joins the army goes  threw basic training then hes out fighting then theres a terrorist in front of him and he spots him before the terrorist does but he cant shoot he cant kill the person hes to scared then boom he dies.

Does this kind of thing happen alot or at all? or does every person joining the army confident they can kill some one and have no problem with it?


Cause not every one could kill a person even if they have a right too in war cause alot of people  tell themself just like im sure you do "Yeah if i was in the army i'd kill every one lolz" Then you chicken out and get you're stomach blown out from fear.


Just wondering i've never heard about anything like this in stories or anything so if this kind of thing does happen i guess they keep it quiet?
Many people have this misconception that everyone who joins the military will take the life of another. The majority of people who have served, in all countries all over the world, have never taken a life. Most US armed forces never see actual combat. The reason being that there are as many non-combatant support and administrative positions in all branches as there are combat oriented ones.

The only branch of the US armed forces that prepares every recruit for combat is the Marine Corps. Marines all recieve the same basic infantry training because of the Corps doctrine that states every Marine is a rifleman first. The reason being that in the case of massive depletion of personnel the USMC could pull cooks, mechanics, secretaries, and computer techs, stick a rifle in their hands and put them on the front line. No other branch can do this, not even the Army.

Regardless, not everyone will see combat and of those that do not all will actually fire on others. Freezing up does happen. Not frequently - which the whole point of the combat training - but it does happen. Sometimes the guy freezing up gets lucky and is saved by his brothers in arms or by sheer stupidity on the part of the enemy. Sometimes the freezing up results in the death of the guy and possibly his teammates. It happens. Not often but it does happen.

What kids joining the military need to be reminded of is not that they could potentially be asked to kill (because the many wouldn't even qualify for combat) but that they could potentially die. That's the more important aspect of it and it bothers me when I see recruiters telling these kids all about the college bonuses and the on-base theatres and gyms, the free healthcare yada yada yada but neglect to remind them that "Hey by the way, you're in the military and that means your chances of death will undoubtedly increase."

Last edited by FeloniousMonk (2006-02-01 10:23:56)

2006-02-01 10:16:09
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6963

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

Rednecks, poor people and hotheads join the military.
Kiss my ass, emo coward. You go tell that to someone in the ADF and see if they don't kick the living shit out of you. I thought Australians were supposed to have balls.

Last edited by FeloniousMonk (2006-02-01 10:19:33)

2006-02-01 10:22:42
FeloniousMonk
Member
+0|6963

the_heart_attack wrote:

i would have left out the petrol comment, greenie is right petrol in aus has gone up nearly 50 percent since america invaded iraq.
Two things that are not directly related since - oh yeah! - very little oil actually comes from Iraq. In fact, the US has been purchasing and trucking in refined oil into Iraq so that the people there can pay about 50 cents per gallons.
2006-02-01 10:39:35
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6986|MA, USA

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

The Domino theory was bullshit.
The domino theory, while hardly definative, was hardly bullshit either.  Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia.  Just like dominoes.  The last one was a real treat too.  Ever hear of Pol Pot?

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

I'm 16, but i can have an opinion.
You can.  But you should be advised that you are basing it on significantly less information than people who are older than you.  That doesn't necessarily mean you are wrong, but it should give you food for thought.

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

I dont have a car. I dont know much about the oil situation, but i remember petrol being alot cheaper before the war.
Unfortunately that cheap gas was an illusion.  The big problem isn't the war, it's lack of refining capacity worldwide.  Personally I think we should interpret the problems in the Middle East, and high fuel prices, as a giant wake up call to start researching alternative fuels (Hydrogen Fuel Cells, Fusion...whatever works).  It's time to make clean, renewable fuel a world research priority.

On the subject of soldiers and killing:  I have been in the army for 12 years (as and Infantryman, and as an MP).  I have had combat experience in Somalia and Iraq.  I have NOT read any of the studies mentioned in earlier posts, so what I say is based only on experience.

In that experience, I have found that, while many people wonder about their ability to kill, few have any difficulties when they are actually presented with a life or death situation (i.e. when they are taking enemy fire).  When someone shoots at you, you shoot back.  At that point, ideology takes a back seat to survival; and  to ensure survival you have to make the other guy stop shooting at you.  How do you do that?  Well, there's that rifle in your hands...  It's automatic.  You don't even think about it.

I will absolutely agree that most soldiers won't take the time to aim in a very stressful situation.  At least not at first.  When the shock of being in combat wears off (a minute or two after the start of a firefight) then professional soldiers will settle down and take aimed shots.  Amatuers, in my experience, rarely aim in combat.

Infantry basic training (at least when I went through it in 1992) is designed to weed out troops who can't stand stress.  1/4 of my Platoon washed out when I went through.  I understand that Marine Boot Camp is even tougher - and that everyone goes through it, regardless of their specialty.  That is probably smart, because as the Army has discovered in Iraq, on the modern battlefield clerks and jerks have to fight too.

Re: the bit about "active fighters" in the study mentioned above.  I would attribute those statistics, not to the willingness of soldiers to fight, but to the nature of combat.  I have been shot AT, far more often that I have done the shooting.  Why?  Because it isn't always easy to find your target.  The enemy isn't (usually) stupid.  They don't present themselves to be shot at, even in an intense firefight.  A soldier might be quite happy to fire his weapon, but unable to find anything to shoot at.

I would be interested in hearing if the experiences of other combat troops match up with mine.
2006-02-01 10:42:25
WilhelmSissener
Banned
+557|6961|Oslo, Norway

Greenie_Beazinie wrote:

@ Goose

I aint anti violence. I'm anti-killing. Games and movies also have shit all to do with real violence.

Australia's military wouldnt protect us too well anyyway, but i dont care cause they gotta get through a few thousand kms of desert before they get to me. If a country such as US invaded and came to where I live, then I'd fight and kill them. I got no quarrel with the Aus military anyway, cause they generally aint a bunch of kids with guns.

Dont ever fucking call me emo.

And the only good tihng the US military has done in many years is help in Pakistan, Ache and Florida.

Also, based on your rationale. The Iraqi insurgents are right to be defending their beliefs and society n shit.
maybe you know more than me but, how the hell did they help FLORIDA?
2006-02-01 10:44:35
2ndLt.Tucker
If you can read this, your already dead
+33|6910|Stillwater, Ok
@ Greenie

  Wow some people just don't know all their facts.  Oil prices have not gone up simply because of the war.  There is something called growing economies like both India and China that have increased oil consumption over the years.  So now with a higher demand and less of a supply your going to get charged more. Simply put its the LAW OF SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

And no not everyone who joins the military are rednecks, morons, and poor people.  I'm in the military right now and came from a upper middle class family.  It was my choice to serve this nation and i swore to defend it.  I have been in combat and not everyone is able to handle it.  Alot of people never even see combat, so no most people don't kill.  My job is to be out on the flight line arming the jets munitions so they can give air support.  YOU GET SHOT AT AND MORTARED ALOT DOING THIS. I remember one day watching an RPG hit the tail of a jet i was working on.  People do freeze up but not always, i'll be honest the first time i was shot at i even froze....i didn't know what was going on at first but once i did all my training kicked in.  It happens.  However whenever i was in convoys off base you don't always see your target like the abover guy said.  I would have been more than happy to returned fire but it does not always happen.  They are called ambushes and usually have the advantage of position and cover at the start of the attack.  The best move to counter this...drive through the ambush.  You stay there your dead.

As for the reason of us being over there, we are legit.  Saddam not only had WMD's but he was also a war criminal, a large terrorist funder, a genocider, and a terrorist safe haven.  We didn't invade for no reason.  He had broken many UN sanctions on missile ranges, drone ranges, and even proof of some wmd artillery shells capable of being loaded with WMD's.  Not ALL of the Iraqi's hate us like you people think.  These terrorists are largely foreign.  As for their economy we have stabled their Dinars to actually a descent rate.  Their unemployment is down to less than 50% where it was over 60% under saddams rule.  The oil is not even in American possesion but in the IRAQI GOVERNMENTS>>>THEY RECIEVE ALL PROFITS FROM IT. NOT US.  How can you say that you are anti-killing but when if someone invaded your country you could shoot them.  Makes no sense to me.

Last edited by 2ndLt.Tucker (2006-02-01 10:50:14)

2006-02-01 10:55:25
whittsend
PV1 Joe Snuffy
+78|6986|MA, USA

WilhelmSissener wrote:

maybe you know more than me but, how the hell did they help FLORIDA?
Hurricane Andrew Relief 1992.
2006-02-01 10:56:29
vjs
Member
+19|6998
Oh my god,

lets not start another topic of why the war was wrong. There are only two types of people who post there those that are brainwashed, ... yes thats two.

Some go through the military for quite a few years finally figure out what's going one, understand their role. Then understand the true meaning of the word DUTY.
Then follow their leaders even if it means their death. Why? the good of the whole (or at least the assumed good of the whole at that time).
My hats go off to them, but often times their leaders are wrong.


Some havn't done anything, watch MTV get brainwashed by celbs and liberals, and a "PC world". Think they have an opinion that matters and if they stick to those opinions they become the brainwasher.
Then after been smacked down enought times and failing, working hard for nothing. Once things get important realise their different opinon doesn't matter to the people who were brainwashing them.

In the end what happens, as long as the brainwashers stay the brainwashers they are happy. IF you get lucky and work hard you become the brainwasher. Both brainwashers want the same thing, Money and Power.

Why was france against the war? B/c the shit we were blowing up in Iraq was theirs. Why wasn't the UN more forceful to go in... b/c they were corrupted by money. Why was sadam in power, b/c he was harsh enough to deal with the terrorists/freedom figthers/citizens of iraq to maintain the power. Why did the US go in... they want the power and the sadam family is against the bush family.

Look through the media to the real sources...

Anyone know that the recording industries in canada are against the RIAA?

end rant, I'll STFU so should U, lets get back to gaming
2006-02-01 10:58:19
WilhelmSissener
Banned
+557|6961|Oslo, Norway

whittsend wrote:

WilhelmSissener wrote:

maybe you know more than me but, how the hell did they help FLORIDA?
Hurricane Andrew Relief 1992.
ok thought he was talking about hurrican catrina, my bad, SORRY....

 

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